None for 10 years, then twice in a week...

[don1]

... either I've been very lucky, or very careful. Won't say which...

OK, after a little piece of advice people. 1st one - own fault. Variable speed limit of M25, down to 50. Went through at an estimated 75 - flash flash. The speed limit stayed at 50 for the next gantry, then 40 for the one after, then back to NSL. There was no reason for the signs to be on - traffic was light and flowing easily. Nothing on the hard shoulder either - so would I be able to argue that there was no real reason for them to be on?
Second one - traffic lights. Green when entering the junction, car in front drops anchors (looked like changing their mind), before eventually pulling back off. As I was already more than halfway through the junction, I carried on to clear it, and saw two flashes. Didn't know if it was me - I know I have 14 days to wait for both, but would there be an argument over it?

Cheers all.

[herewego]

don1 said:

... either I've been very lucky, or very careful. Won't say which...

OK, after a little piece of advice people. 1st one - own fault. Variable speed limit of M25, down to 50. Went through at an estimated 75 - flash flash. The speed limit stayed at 50 for the next gantry, then 40 for the one after, then back to NSL. There was no reason for the signs to be on - traffic was light and flowing easily. Nothing on the hard shoulder either - so would I be able to argue that there was no real reason for them to be on?
Second one - traffic lights. Green when entering the junction, car in front drops anchors (looked like changing their mind), before eventually pulling back off. As I was already more than halfway through the junction, I carried on to clear it, and saw two flashes. Didn't know if it was me - I know I have 14 days to wait for both, but would there be an argument over it?

Cheers all.

If the light was green when you crossed the line then it can't be you. If the other guy reversed back across the line then I can imagine that would trigger the camera. Why did he do that?

[supermono]

I'd be really interested in hearing if the M25 incident comes to anything. I've heard of no first hand evidence that those cameras are working, and it'd be nice to gather another first hand account. If you get nothing, I know it doesn't mean they're definitely off but if you do it means they're definitely on.

SM

[duncanthemad]

The old variable limit (M3 <-> A3) only has something like two individual units in either direction with what could potentially be a camera in them (i.e you can see it has a flash unit fitted). With the number of times I've seen some of them go off, I'm sure we'd know by now if they were live (although another theory is that they run out of film about 30mins after getting loaded!)

And yeah, they do that 40 limit thing for what appears to be no good reason even at 6am in the morning.

No idea about the new stretch though (M3 <-> M4).

[don1]

Cheers for the responses - I'll keep you in touch with what happens!

[ean218]

don1 said:

There was no reason for the signs to be on - traffic was light and flowing easily. Nothing on the hard shoulder either - so would I be able to argue that there was no real reason for them to be on?

There is no reason for low speed limits outside schools at 2 in the morning either, but that's the limit and if there is a camera there, tough luck. The M25 variable speed limit signs are equally non-negotiable, unlike the usual Motorway advisory matrix signs.

[havoc]

duncanthemad said:

And yeah, they do that 40 limit thing for what appears to be no good reason even at 6am in the morning.

Those running the M42 stretch seem to have learned that as well...pull onto a clear Motorway only to see the 50-markers out. 2-3 miles later they go...and 2 miles after that they're back again! And when I say clear M-way I was in the inside lane for perhaps half of the journey.

[jatinder]

I got flashed last year on the M25 at an indicated 135 leptons. Nothing ever came of it. Ever since then my driving has become very sedated. . The variable speed limits are an absloute pain in the arse, I swear they are put on deliberatly, seems to cause more congestion.

[duncanthemad]

havoc said:

duncanthemad said:

And yeah, they do that 40 limit thing for what appears to be no good reason even at 6am in the morning.

Those running the M42 stretch seem to have learned that as well...pull onto a clear Motorway only to see the 50-markers out. 2-3 miles later they go...and 2 miles after that they're back again! And when I say clear M-way I was in the inside lane for perhaps half of the journey.

Don't want to derail this anymore than necessary, but the short answer appears to be that the variable limits are controlled by an algorithm (MIDAS), i.e. little to no human intervention.

When it was originally deployed, the algorithm was based solely on traffic flow. Linky

"During the first year of operation, up to the end of August 1996, fine tuning of control parameters achieved stable operation of a control algorithm based on detection of flow levels and there is evidence of compliance with speed limits and improved safety. Driver reaction has been positive. While no increase in capacity has been positively identified, small improvements may well have been masked by seasonal variations and rising traffic demand."

There's a research project shown on the highways agency website (dated 2003) looking at adding the speed as well. Linky

"To improve the High Occupancy (HIOCC) algorithm currently in use by the MIDAS queue detection system by reducing its "false alarm rate" and improving the time it takes to detect that the incidence has cleared. To develop and tune a "Californian" type incident detection algorithm for use on English motorways. Computer based tools will be developed to allow the algorithms to be tuned for specific sites when supplied with traffic data from that site."

I can't find anything saying that this was ever implemented. But if you imagine just looking at the presence of vehicles, a line of vehicles travelling very close to each other would probably 'look' like a queue forming - the fact that everyone is moving at motorway speeds and not trundling along at 40mph may help to explain some of them.

The sensors in use on the M42 are spaced 100m apart, whereas the ones on the M25 are 500m apart, best hope they used a modified algorithm!

And to steer us back on topic...

jatinder said:

I got flashed last year on the M25 at an indicated 135 leptons. Nothing ever came of it. Ever since then my driving has become very sedated. . The variable speed limits are an absloute pain in the arse, I swear they are put on deliberatly, seems to cause more congestion.

Almost certain even if they are active, they aren't enforced outside of when the the variable limits are actually in operation. Something to do with the special legislation required to actually get them there in the first place (the camera's that is).

[havoc]

duncanthemad said:

havoc said:

duncanthemad said:

And yeah, they do that 40 limit thing for what appears to be no good reason even at 6am in the morning.

Those running the M42 stretch seem to have learned that as well...pull onto a clear Motorway only to see the 50-markers out. 2-3 miles later they go...and 2 miles after that they're back again! And when I say clear M-way I was in the inside lane for perhaps half of the journey.

Don't want to derail this anymore than necessary, but the short answer appears to be that the variable limits are controlled by an algorithm (MIDAS), i.e. little to no human intervention.

When it was originally deployed, the algorithm was based solely on traffic flow. Linky

"During the first year of operation, up to the end of August 1996, fine tuning of control parameters achieved stable operation of a control algorithm based on detection of flow levels and there is evidence of compliance with speed limits and improved safety. Driver reaction has been positive. While no increase in capacity has been positively identified, small improvements may well have been masked by seasonal variations and rising traffic demand."

Well, with absolutely no offence to you, either that's a load of sloblocks or someone's programmed it with VERY conservative algorithms! (perhaps looking at the 2-sec rule distances, rather than real-world...and of course virtually no-one in this country sticks to the 2-sec rule on a fast M-way with good visibility beyond the car in front!)

Although the rush-hour DOES seem to move a bit quicker...but then there is a 33% increase in capacity at peak times...you'd have thought it'd move a lot quicker then though...

[Scoop940]

I travel the section of M25 in the variable limit quite often from the M3 to M40, only gantries with cameras I have seen are just south of the M40 junction. North bound the outside line doesn't have a camera either just the 3 nearside ones.

Seen them flash quite a bit, quite distracting when you spot it...

[7db]

duncanthemad said:

Almost certain even if they are active, they aren't enforced outside of when the the variable limits are actually in operation. Something to do with the special legislation required to actually get them there in the first place (the camera's that is).

I doubt it.

[duncanthemad]

7db said:

duncanthemad said:

Almost certain even if they are active, they aren't enforced outside of when the the variable limits are actually in operation. Something to do with the special legislation required to actually get them there in the first place (the camera's that is).

I doubt it.

Ok, I can't find where I got that info from, so I did some more digging and found this:

(Excerpts from "HA involvement in Safety Camera Partnerships & ‘Netting-Off’ 2005/6"

3.2 Site Selection

"...Additionally, a very robust safety case, demonstrating that all alternatives to camera enforcement have been explored, must be presented for the location of camera sites within national speed limits and on motorways. The future use of camera enforcement on motorways is currently under debate with a review of criteria likely. Consideration of any motorway sites requires programme office involvement at an early stage."

Section 3.2.3 also mentions 'exceptional sites', which may cover these variable sections:

"Max number of hours enforced at exceptional sites must not exceed 15% of the live camera hours within the partnership. Enforcement at road works is excluded from this calculation."

The bottom line is, if it were that easy to put them up, our motorway system would be chock full of them. Anyone remember the furore that erupted when that email circulated about the new gantry signs on the M4 being SPECS capable?

[7db]

The point is the site is already approved, and those cameras are certainly technically capable of shooting at NSL (ie when the variable is NSL).

Of course if you're arguing that it's not all about the money, then there are plenty of people here whom I'm sure will be interested in that PoV...

[Mattt]

My Dad was flashed through there a while back when it was NSL at night and nothing came through, good luck!

[chrisgr31]

ean218 said:

don1 said:

There was no reason for the signs to be on - traffic was light and flowing easily. Nothing on the hard shoulder either - so would I be able to argue that there was no real reason for them to be on?

There is no reason for low speed limits outside schools at 2 in the morning either, but that's the limit and if there is a camera there, tough luck. The M25 variable speed limit signs are equally non-negotiable, unlike the usual Motorway advisory matrix signs.

I am sure I have seen a case where someone was caught by the variable speed limits at some early hour in the morning. There was no reason for the variable speed limit to be on, and hence they were found not guilty. I would assume the case has been discussed on here in the past.

But I suggest the OP looks for the legislation that introduced the variable speed limits on the M25, and finding out if they are only enforceable when traffic conditions or an event warrants it. If so he'll then be able to ask for details of the event.

[Don1]

Well, I seem to have sailed under a lucky star. Nothing through the post for either. Reminded me to slow down a bit though, so they do work occasionally!

[fatboy b]

You ought to be banned you madman!

[NobleGuy]

supermono said:

I'd be really interested in hearing if the M25 incident comes to anything. I've heard of no first hand evidence that those cameras are working, and it'd be nice to gather another first hand account. If you get nothing, I know it doesn't mean they're definitely off but if you do it means they're definitely on.

SM

Got caught years ago doing 75 in a 60 temporary limit - no traffic, just an excuse to flash some people. Apparently (don't know how true) but the cameras are only activated when the temp limits are on. Hence the unnecessary temp limits perhaps?

And they expect us to take their road safety policy seriously. Pah!