Jumping red lights
Discussion
Intersting thing happened on last bank holiday Monday. My friend was driving me to Kent from Berkshire. The M25 was closed around jct 8/9 because of the big stag party accident, so we decided to go clockwise around the M25. Signs after a while said it was closed around St Albans, so we decided to go through London.
This chap is an excellent driver, he has very good observation and always points out things to passengers that they wouldn't have noticed. As well as good observation his technique is almost as good as mine
... always changing gears at the right time, heel & toe to get smooth downshifts, using engine braking where appropriate, etc.
Anyway, the point is that were travelling on a new road that we hadn't driven before. He was sticking religiously to the speed limits as you do, and ended up jumping a red light by mistake. When I pointed it out to him he was genuinely surprised; he explained he was looking so hard for repeaters because we'd been in a 40mph limit, there were lots of street lights but no obvious 40mph repeaters.
I thought it was quite interesting - a case where he actually drove quite dangerously as a result of trying to stick to speed limits.
I find myself in a similar position with the new average speed limits on the M25, I keep my eyes so religiously on the speedo that I don't pay as much attention to the traffic around me as I do when I'm just at the normal national limit motorway speeds.
Phew, glad to get that off my chest.
This chap is an excellent driver, he has very good observation and always points out things to passengers that they wouldn't have noticed. As well as good observation his technique is almost as good as mine
... always changing gears at the right time, heel & toe to get smooth downshifts, using engine braking where appropriate, etc. Anyway, the point is that were travelling on a new road that we hadn't driven before. He was sticking religiously to the speed limits as you do, and ended up jumping a red light by mistake. When I pointed it out to him he was genuinely surprised; he explained he was looking so hard for repeaters because we'd been in a 40mph limit, there were lots of street lights but no obvious 40mph repeaters.
I thought it was quite interesting - a case where he actually drove quite dangerously as a result of trying to stick to speed limits.
I find myself in a similar position with the new average speed limits on the M25, I keep my eyes so religiously on the speedo that I don't pay as much attention to the traffic around me as I do when I'm just at the normal national limit motorway speeds.
Phew, glad to get that off my chest.
edb49 said:
I thought it was quite interesting - a case where he actually drove quite dangerously as a result of trying to stick to speed limits.
...and failing to see the big bright red lights next to the road...
Maybe he's not as good a driver as either of you think?
Edited by Bing o on Wednesday 9th May 15:25
Bing o said:
[quote-edb49]I thought it was quite interesting - a case where he actually drove quite dangerously as a result of trying to stick to speed limits.
...and failing to see the big bright red lights next to the road...
Maybe he's not as good a driver as either of you think?[/quote]
Indeed.
Also heel and toeing... hahaha... that's just for wannabe racing drivers. If you're an uber safe driver like you proclaim you and your buddy to be then you wouldnt ever be in situations to warrant that.
munkie said:
Also heel and toeing... hahaha... that's just for wannabe racing drivers. If you're an uber safe driver like you proclaim you and your buddy to be then you wouldnt ever be in situations to warrant that.
What a load of rubbish... I learnt that heel and toeing was necessary for safe driving the scary way. Approaching a right hand muddy uphill corner on a country lane in the wet, needed 2nd gear, let the clutch up and the back end of the E30 325i I was driving came round rather quickly. If I'd matched the revs, it wouldn't have happened, and I'd be in better control of the car.
Basically heel and toeing means there's less engine drag when changing gears, which means less acceleration for the tyres (whether the acceleration is left/right/forwads/backwads), which means more grip for the tyres to do what you want them to do. I can't see any disadvantage of heel and toe, but I'd be interested to know if there was!
Sould it not be:
Information
Position
Speed
Gear
Acceleration
ie quick summary-
Give /receive information -signals, positions
Position - alter your to take into account the hazard, plan ahead.
Speed - brake or adjust your speed for the hazard/ corner etc. get to the right speed early.
Gear - When at the right speed, change gear and match engine revs the new gear
Accelarate - Accelerate away into the blue yonder when the hazard allows.
with some overlap allowed (alla rospa hat on)
Heal and toe - braking and rev blipping/holding then changing gear is a hard technique I would suggest to get right on the road, and can cause drivers to 'rush' the technique with poor results.
Back to OP - being distracted and not seeing a red light is simply that, being distracted. I dont buy the part about looking for repeaters so hard he missed the red light. If it was a complicated junction set of lights then perhaps he should have concentrated more on the 'harder' instant hazard than a limit which hasnt/unlikely to change in the junction area.
Information
Position
Speed
Gear
Acceleration
ie quick summary-
Give /receive information -signals, positions
Position - alter your to take into account the hazard, plan ahead.
Speed - brake or adjust your speed for the hazard/ corner etc. get to the right speed early.
Gear - When at the right speed, change gear and match engine revs the new gear
Accelarate - Accelerate away into the blue yonder when the hazard allows.
with some overlap allowed (alla rospa hat on)
Heal and toe - braking and rev blipping/holding then changing gear is a hard technique I would suggest to get right on the road, and can cause drivers to 'rush' the technique with poor results.
Back to OP - being distracted and not seeing a red light is simply that, being distracted. I dont buy the part about looking for repeaters so hard he missed the red light. If it was a complicated junction set of lights then perhaps he should have concentrated more on the 'harder' instant hazard than a limit which hasnt/unlikely to change in the junction area.
superlightr said:
Heal and toe - braking and rev blipping/holding then changing gear is a hard technique I would suggest to get right on the road, and can cause drivers to 'rush' the technique with poor results.
Depends on the set up of the pedals and how used you are to it i would say. In my case I learnt to H&T at that same time i learnt to drive a car in the first place so it's second nature and actually feels very odd when i'm not doing it.
edb49 said:
I find myself in a similar position with the new average speed limits on the M25, I keep my eyes so religiously on the speedo that I don't pay as much attention to the traffic around me as I do when I'm just at the normal national limit motorway speeds.
Strewth - I hope you're not on the same roads as me.
7db said:
edb49 said:
I find myself in a similar position with the new average speed limits on the M25, I keep my eyes so religiously on the speedo that I don't pay as much attention to the traffic around me as I do when I'm just at the normal national limit motorway speeds.
Strewth - I hope you're not on the same roads as me.
Blimey... I'd imagine if you've got an issue with what I said then you should avoid pretty much every public road in the western world!
I've always said, I see about a dozen a month go through red lights. Some are deliberate - round these parts we have a proliferation of roundabouts with forests of lights that are only of any use 20 hours a week, so you get people ignoring them, sometimes a group of cars will all go through together.
Some of the cars I see are unaware of the red light. And of course, you see those stopping for green lights. Saw a pearler of one of them yesterday.
And I've done it myself.
There will be people who might jump up and down at this subject. There is of course, absolutely no way at all they can know whether they've unknowingly been through a red light or not. I'm sure many would emphatically deny doing so, just like the half a dozen a month I see who unknowingly pass a red.
Some of the cars I see are unaware of the red light. And of course, you see those stopping for green lights. Saw a pearler of one of them yesterday.
And I've done it myself.
There will be people who might jump up and down at this subject. There is of course, absolutely no way at all they can know whether they've unknowingly been through a red light or not. I'm sure many would emphatically deny doing so, just like the half a dozen a month I see who unknowingly pass a red.
edb49 said:
I find myself in a similar position with the new average speed limits on the M25, I keep my eyes so religiously on the speedo that I don't pay as much attention to the traffic around me as I do when I'm just at the normal national limit motorway speeds.
Quite concerning.
As a tip, say it's a 50 limit, get into 5th gear, see what revs you are at, and then try and use the rest of your senses to maintain that speed - it should be quite easy, and necessitate only the occasional glance at the speedo when you judge it to be safe to do so - ie, not when you have vehicles alongside you, or when you see brake lights.
To add: At 50, the tolerance will be 57mph (50+10% +2mph) which is likely to be an indicated 60mph on your speedo, so you do have more leeway than you probably imagine.
Edited by Bing o on Wednesday 9th May 16:43
Bing o said:
To add: At 50, the tolerance will be 57mph (50+10% +2mph) which is likely to be an indicated 60mph on your speedo, so you do have more leeway than you probably imagine.
There is no leeway, the law is quite simple. If there is a properly posted 50mph limit, then 50.1mph is illegal. Whether the BiB will bother prosectuing for a relatively small offence is another matter.
edb49 said:
There is no leeway, the law is quite simple. If there is a properly posted 50mph limit, then 50.1mph is illegal. Whether the BiB will bother prosectuing for a relatively small offence is another matter.
I have yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted for 50.1mph.
How accurate is your speedo? Mine doesn't have 0.1mph increments.
I won't bother trying to help you with constructive comments as to how you can make your driving safer for both yourself and others, I'll leave you in the middle lane fixated on your speedo in future.
Repeat after Brunstrom "Speed is Bad; Speed Kills;Speed is Bad; Speed Kills; Speed is Bad; Speed Kills; Speed is Bad; Speed Kills"
Edited to add that my suggestion was to give you reassurance that a slight lapse over the limit would not in itself lead to prosecution, but could help you focus on other aspects of driving. Are you afraid of braking the law, or getting prosecuted for it - I tend to be in the latter camp....
Edited by Bing o on Wednesday 9th May 16:53
Bing o said:
edb49 said:
There is no leeway, the law is quite simple. If there is a properly posted 50mph limit, then 50.1mph is illegal. Whether the BiB will bother prosectuing for a relatively small offence is another matter.
I have yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted for 50.1mph.
How accurate is your speedo? Mine doesn't have 0.1mph increments.
I won't bother trying to help you with constructive comments as to how you can make your driving safer for both yourself and others, I'll leave you in the middle lane fixated on your speedo in future.
Repeat after Brunstrom "Speed is Bad; Speed Kills;Speed is Bad; Speed Kills; Speed is Bad; Speed Kills; Speed is Bad; Speed Kills"
If you want to get techincal... didn't I say in my reply that you probably wouldn't get prosecuted for 50.1? My speedo is analogue, so it can measure to almost infinitely small increments. The accuracy of said measurement is of course another matter.
Anyway - the point I was making originally is that when driving in SPECS monitored zones, I find myself concentrating more on my speedo than I do usually. Judging by traffic around me, I am not the only one. This is a forum and meant to encourage debate, so I'd be interested to see what others thought about this.
edb49 said:
This is a forum and meant to encourage debate, so I'd be interested to see what others thought about this.
Well, I did - I think that it is perfectly possible to drive through Specs under the threshold prosecution limit without paying so much attention to the speedo that it would detract from other facets of my driving.
I have explained my technique for doing this - though I will admit that I will look at my speedo more, but not, I feel, to the detriment of the rest of my driving.
Well get this, I was following a car that went throgh a red light at a crossing.. at the next set of lights I said to him he just went through a red light his reply ......
........ the yellow man was showing ..... so even if the light is RED he thought it was ok just because the yellow man was showing ok to proceed.......
I also had tonight, while turning right a motor bike over take me, despite my right indicator on and sticking my arm out of the window .... when I hooted, I receive some fowl gesture ... what's the matter with people ???
I should have kept his number a posted it on here !
........ the yellow man was showing ..... so even if the light is RED he thought it was ok just because the yellow man was showing ok to proceed.......
I also had tonight, while turning right a motor bike over take me, despite my right indicator on and sticking my arm out of the window .... when I hooted, I receive some fowl gesture ... what's the matter with people ???
I should have kept his number a posted it on here !
edb49 said:
Without meaning to get too off-topic, perhaps SPECS should have lower prosecution limits? I'd imagine the +10% +2mph rule is in part due to people's speed varying all the time, eg hills, overtaking other traffic, etc. SPECS gets rid of these variations...
As I understood it, the 10% plus 2 rule is there to allow for people's speedo's varying in accuracy, nothing to do with hills/overtaking
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