PCN 31 Entering & stopping in a box junction

[ballon]

I need some help here.

There are 2 photo's of me 5 seconds apart, definitely stopped in a box junction, on my motorbike.

However I am absolutely certain that I did not enter the junction whilst the lights were red, when the lorry in front suddenly stopped I had to stop. The first photo shows me leaning to the right to ascertained (the 5 seconds) why the lorry in front was not moving. The second clearly shows me pulling the handlebars to the left to go round the lorry, pity I can't post them on here.

Any advice would be welcome as I am loathed to pay any money to TFL that is not justified.

PS. The reason I was going home at 13.45 was that my youngest daughters school had phoned to say she was ill and so I had go to collect her. Hence the better than average recall of the journey!

[vonhosen]

ballon said:

I need some help here.

There are 2 photo's of me 5 seconds apart, definitely stopped in a box junction, on my motorbike.

However I am absolutely certain that I did not enter the junction whilst the lights were red, when the lorry in front suddenly stopped I had to stop. The first photo shows me leaning to the right to ascertained (the 5 seconds) why the lorry in front was not moving. The second clearly shows me pulling the handlebars to the left to go round the lorry, pity I can't post them on here.

Any advice would be welcome as I am loathed to pay any money to TFL that is not justified.

PS. The reason I was going home at 13.45 was that my youngest daughters school had phoned to say she was ill and so I had go to collect her. Hence the better than average recall of the journey!

Lights don't have to be red, the offence is stopping in it unless waiting to turn right.

[7db]

No it's not.

It's stopping in it because of a stationary vehicle, other than one turning right.

[tvrgit]

ballon said:

I need some help here.

There are 2 photo's of me 5 seconds apart, definitely stopped in a box junction, on my motorbike.

However I am absolutely certain that I did not enter the junction whilst the lights were red, when the lorry in front suddenly stopped I had to stop. The first photo shows me leaning to the right to ascertained (the 5 seconds) why the lorry in front was not moving. The second clearly shows me pulling the handlebars to the left to go round the lorry, pity I can't post them on here.

Any advice would be welcome as I am loathed to pay any money to TFL that is not justified.

PS. The reason I was going home at 13.45 was that my youngest daughters school had phoned to say she was ill and so I had go to collect her. Hence the better than average recall of the journey!

AFAIK it is irrelevant whether the lights were green, amber or red when you enter the box junction - if you stop in the box you've committed the offence - you are not supposed to enter the box until your exit is clear. If the vehicle in front stops unexpectedly and leaves you in the box, you've committed the offence.

Only exception is if you are waiting to turn right and are prevented from doing so by other traffic.

I am not being sanctimonious about this - it's easy to be caught out, I did the same thing on Saturday on a box right outside a fire station, I was caught out because the car in front let somebody out of an exit just past the fire station so the exit was one car length shorter than I expected it would be when I followed him into the box. Fortunately the driver of the cop car who stopped alongside me in the other lane wasn't hypocritical enough to book me.

Very unlucky mate but a difficult one to argue I think.

[ballon]

Acknowledged but where is the line drawn between stopping and obstructing (hence the box junction) and pausing and then movong on. The reason the lorry had stopped was that some muppet was in the wrong lane and was trying to move back into the correct one, when I followed the lorry all was moving smoothly.

Of course I don't have a video tape prove this!

Edited by ballon on Wednesday 9th May 23:09

[tvrgit]

ballon said:

Acknowledged but where is the line drawn between stopping and obstructing (hence the box junction) and pausing and then movong on. The reason the lorry had stopped was that some muppet was in the wrong lane and was trying to move back into the correct one, when I followed the lorry all was moving smoothly.

The line is drawn whenever you stop, even if pausing then moving on.

highway code said:

150: Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

[7db]

ballon said:

Acknowledged but where is the line drawn between stopping and...

5 seconds in your case. I've seen others at 3.

[ballon]

tvrgit said:

ballon said:

Acknowledged but where is the line drawn between stopping and obstructing (hence the box junction) and pausing and then movong on. The reason the lorry had stopped was that some muppet was in the wrong lane and was trying to move back into the correct one, when I followed the lorry all was moving smoothly.

The line is drawn whenever you stop, even if pausing then moving on.

highway code said:

150: Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

OK. Not what I wanted to hear, however it begs the question why there is the need for congestion charging! The junction in question is at the bottom of East Hill/St Ann's Hill on the Wandsworth (SW18) one way system and if any of you know it, it must provide one of the most lucrative revenue streams in the capital. The pisser is I never use it normally because its so F****** awful.

[7db]

You don't have the wonderful benefits of the glorious congestion charge in Wandsworth.

[flemke]

ballon said:

tvrgit said:

ballon said:

Acknowledged but where is the line drawn between stopping and obstructing (hence the box junction) and pausing and then movong on. The reason the lorry had stopped was that some muppet was in the wrong lane and was trying to move back into the correct one, when I followed the lorry all was moving smoothly.

The line is drawn whenever you stop, even if pausing then moving on.

highway code said:

150: Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

OK. Not what I wanted to hear, however it begs the question why there is the need for congestion charging! The junction in question is at the bottom of East Hill/St Ann's Hill on the Wandsworth (SW18) one way system and if any of you know it, it must provide one of the most lucrative revenue streams in the capital. The pisser is I never use it normally because its so F****** awful.

A perfect example of the fundamental unfairness of robotic traffic enforcement.

Not to mention which, if this law were enforced universally and to the letter, London would grind to a halt within literally an hour.

[7db]

flemke said:

Not to mention which, if this law were enforced universally and to the letter, London would grind to a halt within literally an hour.

No it wouldn't.

[flemke]

7db said:

flemke said:

Not to mention which, if this law were enforced universally and to the letter, London would grind to a halt within literally an hour.

No it wouldn't.

Right.
I'll back up my assertion and then you back up yours, okay? Then at least we'll have something to chew on.

I say that it would grind to a halt because almost never do I see someone actually wait to enter a box junction until a car length's space is totally empty on the other side.
Instead, at present when there is an average level of workday traffic (and of course the box junctions are located at the more densely trafficked sites), a following driver will make a judgment, whilst the car ahead is still in the box, as to whether that car is likely to make it through the junction and leave a space for the follower.

Some box junctions are a hundred feet or more across. If, every time that you approached a box junction with a car ahead, you came to a complete halt and waited patiently until that car was fifteen feet out the other end, and every other driver did the same, the average green light phase would permit only a few - maybe just two or three - cars to go through the entire Waiting/Starting up from a standstill and moving forward/Going fifteen feet past the far end of the box Sequence before the following car could even begin to move.

Why do you see it differently?

[2something]

flemke said:

7db said:

flemke said:

Not to mention which, if this law were enforced universally and to the letter, London would grind to a halt within literally an hour.

No it wouldn't.

Right.
I'll back up my assertion and then you back up yours, okay? Then at least we'll have something to chew on.

I say that it would grind to a halt because almost never do I see someone actually wait to enter a box junction until a car length's space is totally empty on the other side.
Instead, at present when there is an average level of workday traffic (and of course the box junctions are located at the more densely trafficked sites), a following driver will make a judgment, whilst the car ahead is still in the box, as to whether that car is likely to make it through the junction and leave a space for the follower.

Some box junctions are a hundred feet or more across. If, every time that you approached a box junction with a car ahead, you came to a complete halt and waited patiently until that car was fifteen feet out the other end, and every other driver did the same, the average green light phase would permit only a few - maybe just two or three - cars to go through the entire Waiting/Starting up from a standstill and moving forward/Going fifteen feet past the far end of the box Sequence before the following car could even begin to move.

Why do you see it differently?

The only statistical evidence I could find was this, which indicates you are both right:

www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=14667&ref=archive

[flemke]

2something said:

flemke said:

7db said:

flemke said:

Not to mention which, if this law were enforced universally and to the letter, London would grind to a halt within literally an hour.

No it wouldn't.

Right.
I'll back up my assertion and then you back up yours, okay? Then at least we'll have something to chew on.

I say that it would grind to a halt because almost never do I see someone actually wait to enter a box junction until a car length's space is totally empty on the other side.
Instead, at present when there is an average level of workday traffic (and of course the box junctions are located at the more densely trafficked sites), a following driver will make a judgment, whilst the car ahead is still in the box, as to whether that car is likely to make it through the junction and leave a space for the follower.

Some box junctions are a hundred feet or more across. If, every time that you approached a box junction with a car ahead, you came to a complete halt and waited patiently until that car was fifteen feet out the other end, and every other driver did the same, the average green light phase would permit only a few - maybe just two or three - cars to go through the entire Waiting/Starting up from a standstill and moving forward/Going fifteen feet past the far end of the box Sequence before the following car could even begin to move.

Why do you see it differently?

The only statistical evidence I could find was this, which indicates you are both right:

www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=14667&ref=archive

Thanks for the link. An excerpt from it:

Though there was an improvement in traffic flow at some of the junctions, it was down 4% on average - though there were 23% fewer motorists stopping in the junction. So box junctions are meant to improve traffic flow, but it seems that installing cameras to enforce them actually makes it worse.

The problem is that this is the diminution in flow with people now typically violating the rule.
That is, at present the only time that people actually wait until the car ahead has gone 15 feet past the far end of the box is when traffic has already come to a near halt. Those are the circumstances when one is fearful of being held up before making it across cleanly.
The norm today is for people to enter the junction when they believe that they have a good/very good chance of clearing the box. The key, however, is that people do that before the box and 15 feet beyond are actually clear. It is done on the basis of reasonable expectation, not on the basis of certainty. The problem with the law is that it requires certainty:

150: Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

If following drivers had to wait that extra time so that there were no circumstances whatsoever in which (straight ahead) traffic could catch them out, things would back up very badly.

[ballon]

7db said:

You don't have the wonderful benefits of the glorious congestion charge in Wandsworth.

Thank God, and nor do you in sunny SW19, however guess where the PCN comes from................... TFL.