2 year old lemon
Discussion
My 22K 2-year old Saab 9-3 has been diabolical from a reliability point of view. It started off OK so there were no grounds to return it under the "lemon law" (or my understanding of it)...unlike its immediate predecessor which spent the first 3 weeks of its life at the Saab dealer before I refused to have it returned.
So, 3 weeks ago it needed a new turbo and a new CD player. 2 days ago the engine malfunction light appeared and it was booked in for next week. This morning the air bag malfunction light has appeared and it has been sent back to the dealer in disgrace. The service dept. had initially suggested that the AA merely disable the air bag warning, but with plenty of Motorway driving imminent this weekend the reply was ..err frank and to the point. This will be the 5th unscheduled garage visit in 5 months (loose drag links, seized steering lock etc).
In my job I need a reliable car and with my dealer being 20 miles away there has been a lot of disruption this year.I am very keen to get shot of this vehicle. The nice lady at Saab GB was very sympathetic and suggested that I send a letter to them claiming that the car was not "fit for purpose". Do I have any legal rights or is is just a question of angling to get the best price for it either privately or via the dealer ??
So, 3 weeks ago it needed a new turbo and a new CD player. 2 days ago the engine malfunction light appeared and it was booked in for next week. This morning the air bag malfunction light has appeared and it has been sent back to the dealer in disgrace. The service dept. had initially suggested that the AA merely disable the air bag warning, but with plenty of Motorway driving imminent this weekend the reply was ..err frank and to the point. This will be the 5th unscheduled garage visit in 5 months (loose drag links, seized steering lock etc).
In my job I need a reliable car and with my dealer being 20 miles away there has been a lot of disruption this year.I am very keen to get shot of this vehicle. The nice lady at Saab GB was very sympathetic and suggested that I send a letter to them claiming that the car was not "fit for purpose". Do I have any legal rights or is is just a question of angling to get the best price for it either privately or via the dealer ??
"not fit for purpose" is exactly right. THe car should be far more reliable than it is, and is therefore not of sufficient quality.
Get the letter sent - telling them you wish to return the car as they've repeatedly been unable to bring it up to the standard expected of the newly purchased vehicle.
Get the letter sent - telling them you wish to return the car as they've repeatedly been unable to bring it up to the standard expected of the newly purchased vehicle.
Have a read of this. Ok the page is for used cars. But it refers to the sale of goods act 1979 and thats the one you can use to return the car. Good luck. 
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem...
Used Cars - consumer rights
The Law
When you buy goods from a trader, you enter into a legally binding contract governed by the Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. The law gives buyer and seller rights and responsibilities and applies to the sale of used cars in the same way as to other goods. When you buy from a trader, you have the right to expect the car to be:
of satisfactory quality;
fit for its purpose, including any particular purpose made known, and
as described.
The law defines goods as being of ‘satisfactory quality’ if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory – taking the description of the goods into account, the price (if relevant) and all other relevant circumstances. So, when you have bought a used car, you must consider its age, the price you paid, the description which was applied to it and anything else which is relevant when deciding whether it is of satisfactory quality. Your expectations should be different when you are buying a low mileage, two-year-old car than when you are buying a high mileage, ten-year-old one, for example. However, it must still be:
fit to be used on the road;
in a condition which reflects its age and price, and
reasonably reliable
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem...
Used Cars - consumer rights
The Law
When you buy goods from a trader, you enter into a legally binding contract governed by the Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended by the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 and the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. The law gives buyer and seller rights and responsibilities and applies to the sale of used cars in the same way as to other goods. When you buy from a trader, you have the right to expect the car to be:
of satisfactory quality;
fit for its purpose, including any particular purpose made known, and
as described.
The law defines goods as being of ‘satisfactory quality’ if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory – taking the description of the goods into account, the price (if relevant) and all other relevant circumstances. So, when you have bought a used car, you must consider its age, the price you paid, the description which was applied to it and anything else which is relevant when deciding whether it is of satisfactory quality. Your expectations should be different when you are buying a low mileage, two-year-old car than when you are buying a high mileage, ten-year-old one, for example. However, it must still be:
fit to be used on the road;
in a condition which reflects its age and price, and
reasonably reliable
Edited by Munter on Friday 1st June 15:43
moffspeed said:
My 22K 2-year old Saab 9-3 has been diabolical from a reliability point of view. It started off OK so there were no grounds to return it under the "lemon law" (or my understanding of it)...unlike its immediate predecessor which spent the first 3 weeks of its life at the Saab dealer before I refused to have it returned.
So, 3 weeks ago it needed a new turbo and a new CD player. 2 days ago the engine malfunction light appeared and it was booked in for next week. This morning the air bag malfunction light has appeared and it has been sent back to the dealer in disgrace. The service dept. had initially suggested that the AA merely disable the air bag warning, but with plenty of Motorway driving imminent this weekend the reply was ..err frank and to the point. This will be the 5th unscheduled garage visit in 5 months (loose drag links, seized steering lock etc).
In my job I need a reliable car and with my dealer being 20 miles away there has been a lot of disruption this year.I am very keen to get shot of this vehicle. The nice lady at Saab GB was very sympathetic and suggested that I send a letter to them claiming that the car was not "fit for purpose". Do I have any legal rights or is is just a question of angling to get the best price for it either privately or via the dealer ??
This is such a shame about SAAB.So, 3 weeks ago it needed a new turbo and a new CD player. 2 days ago the engine malfunction light appeared and it was booked in for next week. This morning the air bag malfunction light has appeared and it has been sent back to the dealer in disgrace. The service dept. had initially suggested that the AA merely disable the air bag warning, but with plenty of Motorway driving imminent this weekend the reply was ..err frank and to the point. This will be the 5th unscheduled garage visit in 5 months (loose drag links, seized steering lock etc).
In my job I need a reliable car and with my dealer being 20 miles away there has been a lot of disruption this year.I am very keen to get shot of this vehicle. The nice lady at Saab GB was very sympathetic and suggested that I send a letter to them claiming that the car was not "fit for purpose". Do I have any legal rights or is is just a question of angling to get the best price for it either privately or via the dealer ??
I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
jith said:
This is such a shame about SAAB.
I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
German build quality is a myth. If you want reliability you have to go Japenese as a general rule.I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
bluepolarbear said:
jith said:
This is such a shame about SAAB.
I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
German build quality is a myth. If you want reliability you have to go Japenese as a general rule.I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
bluepolarbear said:
jith said:
This is such a shame about SAAB.
I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
German build quality is a myth. If you want reliability you have to go Japenese as a general rule.I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
And so it goes on. The Saab spent 8 days (yes, 8 days) with the dealer to fix the air bag malfunction light. Under protest I took the car back and within 24hrs the malfunction light was glowing happily again. So its now had a further week at the dealers during which time Saab Customer Service at Head Office have been 100% obnoxious and unhelpful. No, they won't consider buying the car off me but would put me in another Saab...no siree. Other comments have included "well it is 2 years old and done 22,000 miles"
The dealers have not found a problem with the airbag and are expecting me to collect the car tomorrow. A derisory offer of £2K under Parkers "good" and £4K under Parkers "franchise" has been made (equivalent to 60% depreciation in 2 years). Saab GB cheerfully tell me that they will inform the police to recover my hire vehicle if I do not return it tomorrow.
15 days after my initial complaint letter I have not had a single written response from the addressees ie Saab Whitmore, Saab Canterbury and Saab GB. All the chasing up has been done by me and it has been met with a wall of apathy and no sense of empathy or willingness to put things right.
My advice is avoid Saab like the plague, but who can give me sound legal advice ?
The dealers have not found a problem with the airbag and are expecting me to collect the car tomorrow. A derisory offer of £2K under Parkers "good" and £4K under Parkers "franchise" has been made (equivalent to 60% depreciation in 2 years). Saab GB cheerfully tell me that they will inform the police to recover my hire vehicle if I do not return it tomorrow.
15 days after my initial complaint letter I have not had a single written response from the addressees ie Saab Whitmore, Saab Canterbury and Saab GB. All the chasing up has been done by me and it has been met with a wall of apathy and no sense of empathy or willingness to put things right.
My advice is avoid Saab like the plague, but who can give me sound legal advice ?
Edited by moffspeed on Tuesday 19th June 18:07
If it's covered by warranty and they haven't found the fault, then reject the car back at them, and tell them you're keeping the hire-car until it's fixed.
Someone who's legal/BiB will be able to tell you if the threat of recovering the hire car is legit or an empty threat.
Right about now, I'd definitely be getting in touch with Auto Express or Autocar. Phone call first, follow up with copies of the correspondence and the efforts you have and they haven't gone to. Saab WILL NOT like press coverage of this, no auto mfr does.
Also worth getting a free initial consult with a consumer law solicitor...this certainly does sound 'unfit for purpose', but IANAL.
Someone who's legal/BiB will be able to tell you if the threat of recovering the hire car is legit or an empty threat.
Right about now, I'd definitely be getting in touch with Auto Express or Autocar. Phone call first, follow up with copies of the correspondence and the efforts you have and they haven't gone to. Saab WILL NOT like press coverage of this, no auto mfr does.
Also worth getting a free initial consult with a consumer law solicitor...this certainly does sound 'unfit for purpose', but IANAL.
My education in consumer law is pretty good, but this kind of issue is best dealt with by 'practical' advice'.
The reason I say this is that the cases I have heard of with most cases of the Sale of Goods Act are reasonably clear cut, but the practicality with cars is somewhat different. In the US 'lemon laws' state the particular types of instances where a driver can return his or her car. In the UK however it is down to each individual occurance.
From the cases I have heard of the older the car is and the less time it has spent 'returned' the more difficult the case is.
The types of 'positive' situations would be for example a 4 month old car which has spent 2-3 months being fixed - the same problem occurring time and time again.
The further you get away from that the more difficult a case is to prove.
My hunch is *at the moment* the situation is not quite bad enough to say you have a definate case. However, should the fault occur again and they fail to fix it, and again and fail to fix it, then this would be the type of situation which WOULD edge in your favour since the car is neither fit for purpose and there is also a serious safety issue if the airbag is malfunctioning.
With regard to the hire car, technically they may be right. Whether they would really call the police on you I would seriously doubt, as would their willingness to get involved.
My learned 'Art of War' style thinking out of the box advice would be that you will agree to collect the car straight away *as long as* if the fault occurs again within the next 6 months, you have the right to return it for £X, or be entitled to £X compensation. Put it in writing for the dealer principle to sign.
Then that puts the ball in their court. They will be stuck between a rock and a hard place, either admitting they don't know what the fault is or are not confident of fixing it - thus giving you great ammo for legal action, or this time, putting the risk on *their* shoulders.
That way, if your car is fine, you are happy. If not, you will be compensated.
The reason I say this is that the cases I have heard of with most cases of the Sale of Goods Act are reasonably clear cut, but the practicality with cars is somewhat different. In the US 'lemon laws' state the particular types of instances where a driver can return his or her car. In the UK however it is down to each individual occurance.
From the cases I have heard of the older the car is and the less time it has spent 'returned' the more difficult the case is.
The types of 'positive' situations would be for example a 4 month old car which has spent 2-3 months being fixed - the same problem occurring time and time again.
The further you get away from that the more difficult a case is to prove.
My hunch is *at the moment* the situation is not quite bad enough to say you have a definate case. However, should the fault occur again and they fail to fix it, and again and fail to fix it, then this would be the type of situation which WOULD edge in your favour since the car is neither fit for purpose and there is also a serious safety issue if the airbag is malfunctioning.
With regard to the hire car, technically they may be right. Whether they would really call the police on you I would seriously doubt, as would their willingness to get involved.
My learned 'Art of War' style thinking out of the box advice would be that you will agree to collect the car straight away *as long as* if the fault occurs again within the next 6 months, you have the right to return it for £X, or be entitled to £X compensation. Put it in writing for the dealer principle to sign.
Then that puts the ball in their court. They will be stuck between a rock and a hard place, either admitting they don't know what the fault is or are not confident of fixing it - thus giving you great ammo for legal action, or this time, putting the risk on *their* shoulders.
That way, if your car is fine, you are happy. If not, you will be compensated.
Thanks for that. The other half-hearted offer was for the car to be returned to the technical centre in Luton to be evaluated and repaired. This could take "several weeks" and add to the 9 weeks+ that I have spent in hire/loan cars in the last 2 years.
The last 2 dealer loaners have been an 8 year old Saab 900 and a Ford Ka (seriously)..both with enough petrol fumes in their tanks to limp around the corner to the fuel station. Surely I have a legal right to refuse this suggestion ?
The last 2 dealer loaners have been an 8 year old Saab 900 and a Ford Ka (seriously)..both with enough petrol fumes in their tanks to limp around the corner to the fuel station. Surely I have a legal right to refuse this suggestion ?
moffspeed said:
Thanks for that. The other half-hearted offer was for the car to be returned to the technical centre in Luton to be evaluated and repaired. This could take "several weeks" and add to the 9 weeks+ that I have spent in hire/loan cars in the last 2 years.
The last 2 dealer loaners have been an 8 year old Saab 900 and a Ford Ka (seriously)..both with enough petrol fumes in their tanks to limp around the corner to the fuel station. Surely I have a legal right to refuse this suggestion ?
I would consider 'stepping up' the situation by demanding a car in the same league as the one which is under warranty, other wise you have a situation where;The last 2 dealer loaners have been an 8 year old Saab 900 and a Ford Ka (seriously)..both with enough petrol fumes in their tanks to limp around the corner to the fuel station. Surely I have a legal right to refuse this suggestion ?
1) Your car is depreciating by the week whilst it is in the highest depreciation point whilst
2) You drive around an old/budget car you obviously don't want to drive otherwise you would have bought one and saved yourself a lot of money!
I think that is a reasonable request.
Sorry for bumping this topic but things go from worse to diabolical.
Somehow Saab seem to have fixed the air bag problem but now the steering lock has broken again. Saab GB and the dealers are adamant that they will not buy this vehicle off me but only offer the solutions above i.e. either help in buying a new Saab or a lengthy return to the technical centre (ie many weeks) for my current vehicle.
So the state of play this evening is that I have a car that is not fit for purpose and I face the spectre of a further visit to their dreadful dealers to fix the steering lock. They will not offer to buy the car at a sensible price as they have "sufficient stocks", but will investigate what the auction houses may pay me (?£8K I reckon).I wouldn't dream of offloading this pile of c**p privately.
I have nothing but contempt for Saab GB and all their cruddy dealers and feel that morality and obligation has passed them by. Any further thoughts chaps ?
Somehow Saab seem to have fixed the air bag problem but now the steering lock has broken again. Saab GB and the dealers are adamant that they will not buy this vehicle off me but only offer the solutions above i.e. either help in buying a new Saab or a lengthy return to the technical centre (ie many weeks) for my current vehicle.
So the state of play this evening is that I have a car that is not fit for purpose and I face the spectre of a further visit to their dreadful dealers to fix the steering lock. They will not offer to buy the car at a sensible price as they have "sufficient stocks", but will investigate what the auction houses may pay me (?£8K I reckon).I wouldn't dream of offloading this pile of c**p privately.
I have nothing but contempt for Saab GB and all their cruddy dealers and feel that morality and obligation has passed them by. Any further thoughts chaps ?
Edited by moffspeed on Monday 2nd July 17:47
We've returned two of our 9-3 TiDs to Saab just on the engine malfunction light issue alone. The cars were about a year old. It was a battle admittedly. After two years , sharp intake of breath.
Since then we have dropped Saab and in fact all GM products from the fleet. PSA also gone due to serial problems.
Since then we have dropped Saab and in fact all GM products from the fleet. PSA also gone due to serial problems.
moffspeed said:
Sorry for bumping this topic but things go from worse to diabolical.
Somehow Saab seem to have fixed the air bag problem but now the steering lock has broken again. Saab GB and the dealers are adamant that they will not buy this vehicle off me but only offer the solutions above i.e. either help in buying a new Saab or a lengthy return to the technical centre (ie many weeks) for my current vehicle.
So the state of play this evening is that I have a car that is not fit for purpose and I face the spectre of a further visit to their dreadful dealers to fix the steering lock. They will not offer to buy the car at a sensible price as they have "sufficient stocks", but will investigate what the auction houses may pay me (?£8K I reckon).I wouldn't dream of offloading this pile of c**p privately.
I have nothing but contempt for Saab GB and all their cruddy dealers and feel that morality and obligation has passed them by. Any further thoughts chaps ?
I would do what I mentioned before.Somehow Saab seem to have fixed the air bag problem but now the steering lock has broken again. Saab GB and the dealers are adamant that they will not buy this vehicle off me but only offer the solutions above i.e. either help in buying a new Saab or a lengthy return to the technical centre (ie many weeks) for my current vehicle.
So the state of play this evening is that I have a car that is not fit for purpose and I face the spectre of a further visit to their dreadful dealers to fix the steering lock. They will not offer to buy the car at a sensible price as they have "sufficient stocks", but will investigate what the auction houses may pay me (?£8K I reckon).I wouldn't dream of offloading this pile of c**p privately.
I have nothing but contempt for Saab GB and all their cruddy dealers and feel that morality and obligation has passed them by. Any further thoughts chaps ?
Edited by moffspeed on Monday 2nd July 17:47
That is get it in writing that if you are to return the car to them as any of the faults they have already fixed once or twice happen again in the next three months occur they will take the car off you at the Glass' guide private sale current value.
If they refuse, then this is tantamount to admitting that they themselves have no confidence that they can permenantly fix the car and add fuel to your fire as to forcing a return by legal means if needed.
Have your local sign company make up some stickers for the side,front,back and roof of the car saying in big letters how unreliable it has been and where you bought it from.Park it outside their showroom on weekends and phone your local newspapers,radio etc and tell them what you are doing.This should give them a big enough wake up call to do something about it!
And remember, don't accept that invitation into the service managers office.
If you have to spell it out to them again and again just how bad the car & their customer service is, you want to be in the main reception so that as many customers ( and potential ) customers hear the gist of your conversation.
If you have to spell it out to them again and again just how bad the car & their customer service is, you want to be in the main reception so that as many customers ( and potential ) customers hear the gist of your conversation.
bluepolarbear said:
jith said:
This is such a shame about SAAB.
I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
German build quality is a myth. If you want reliability you have to go Japenese as a general rule.I used to love them, particularly the reliability aspect, but since GM took them over they are utterly diabolical.
I would try and get my money back and buy something German for your own peace of mind.
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