RE: Real policing, not speed cameras
RE: Real policing, not speed cameras
Thursday 14th June 2007

Real policing, not speed cameras

The Government reprimands chief constables for relying too heavily on speed cameras



The Government has begun to reprimand chief constables for relying heavily on speed cameras and not policing our roads enough. Interestingly, the move comes ahead of a case at the European Court of Human Rights on the 29th of this month over the ‘right to silence’ when the identity of a driver is requested during a speed camera prosecution.

The Times article, 14th June:

The Government has reprimanded chief constables for relying too heavily on speed cameras and failing to allocate enough traffic officers to keep roads safe.

The number of traffic police in England and Wales has fallen from 7,525 in 1999 to 6,511 last year, a reduction of 13 per cent, according to figures obtained by the Conservatives.

By contrast, the number of speed camera penalties quadrupled to 1.9 million between 1999 and 2004, the latest year for which figures are available.

Motoring groups argue that speed cameras are no substitute for a strong police presence because they cannot detect offences such as drink-driving, dangerous overtaking and driving while disqualified. The number of breath tests carried out fell from 765,000 in 1999 to 578,000 in 2004.

The reduction in the number of traffic police has been the subject of recent angry exchanges between ministers and chief constables, who make the final decision about how to deploy their resources.

Stephen Ladyman, the Road Safety Minister, has accused chief constables of ignoring a Home Office National Policing Plan, which makes roads policing a priority.

Speaking at a traffic policing conference last month, he said: “One set of chief constables have read the National Policing Plan and read the bit about priority for roads policing and others have read it and ignored that bit.”

Mr Ladyman and Vernon Coaker, the Home Office Minister, have written a joint letter to chief constables saying: “Whilst technology has enhanced capacity for the police to perform their role more efficiently and effectively, it cannot enforce all offences and cannot replace direct intervention by the police. There is a need for an active police presence on the roads.”

The Association of Chief Police Constables has responded by claiming that the Government is to blame for the decline in traffic officers because it has failed to include traffic offences in the targets by which forces are judged.

Med Hughes, head of roads policing at the ACPO and Chief Constable of South Yorkshire, said that the Government had failed to make a financial commitment to support its words on road safety.

“We have had additional money for robbery initiatives, burglary, antisocial behaviour, domestic violence, but never for road casualty reduction.”

Mr Hughes said that Home Office targets required police to devote resources to petty crime rather than catching dangerous drivers.

“We have been calling for over two years for drink-driving and driving while disqualified to be given the same status in our policing statistics as the theft of a Kit Kat from a corner shop.”

In their letter Mr Ladyman and Mr Coaker say: “We are considering how the importance [of these offences] can be adequately reflected in future performance frameworks.”

Mr Hughes said that a greater police presence would help to reduce road deaths, which had fallen only slightly since speed cameras began to appear in significant numbers in the mid1990s.

But he denied that cameras were to blame for the decline in traffic police numbers. “The fall is down to other pressures of policing, not cameras. Without those cameras we still wouldn’t have the traffic officers but we wouldn’t be enforcing the speed limit either.”

Owen Paterson, Shadow Roads Minister, said: “Speed cameras cannot detect inappropriate speed for the conditions. They can only enforce an arbitrary limit. We need human beings on the road to judge what’s dangerous and what’s not.”

Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk has also made this comment: "I'm absolutely certain I know what's going on here - Department for Transport is attempting to deflect the blame for the spectacular failure of their road safety policies ahead of the 2006 road deaths figures. Scottish figures released earlier this week for 2006 showed a 10% increase."

"Foisting bad policy on the public was bad enough, but not having the courage and the decency to admit their mistakes is far worse. Not only would Department for Transport rather save face than save lives, now they would also like to blame the Police. You couldn't make it up."

"I hope Chief Constables will speak out and point the finger of blame where it is deserved - at Department for Transport."

"Remember that the funds for speed cameras since April have been given in a 'road safety grant', which isn't ring fenced and which is capped for four years."

"We'll see even more revelations and realisations coming out during 'Scrap Speed Cameras Week', starting 24th June. Speed camera policy has failed. Department for Transport MUST take responsibility and pull the plug."

Read the full letter here

The Times

Author
Discussion

Badboy_bazz

Original Poster:

148 posts

235 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
said:
“We have been calling for over two years for drink-driving and driving while disqualified to be given the same status in our policing statistics as the theft of a Kit Kat from a corner shop.”
Yep coz drink driving is the same as taking a kitkat!
Remember kids, kitkat theft wrecks lives.

What the hell are they all on? They should all be brought before a panel an made to explain why the police an DfT cannot work together to sort this country's roads out!

Parrot of Doom

23,075 posts

265 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
What I find most interesting about this article is the importance of targets in determining policing policy. What would people rather have, a criminal resposible for robbing 5 houses locked up, or 5 petty offences of littering recorded?

If a Chief Constable came out and said "These targets are bloody stupid, we need to be arresting the real trouble causers, and we also need to get rid of all this red tape which keeps our constables off the streets", would the government be able to sack/demote him? Who decides who is who, and what happens in the Police force?

Mr Whippy

32,453 posts

272 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
ACPO seem to be the scapegoats here.

Government gives targets.

ACPO optimising policing to meet targets.

Government tells ACPO they are not policing properly.

What does the government expect the ACPO to do, ignore the targets and do 'real' policing and then get sacked because they have missed the stupid targets by a mile?

Government really do interfere too much. If they understood what they were managing it would help, but they just seem to fiddle randomly and when it goes wrong they blame the people they are directing.

Muppet Labour party!

Dave

s2art

18,942 posts

284 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Its the target culture itself thats bad. Mainly because the tagets fail to measure real outcomes. As POD said, who cares about a few minor littering offenses when people are scared to go to the city centre at night.

TTwiggy

11,884 posts

235 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Maybe there's nothing wrong with targets as such, but they should be on a sliding scale (i.e a shoplifter, first offence is valued at 1 point, while catching a murderer nets 500 points - 'cos what do points make?....)

Bonce

4,339 posts

310 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
TTwiggy said:
'cos what do points make?....)
err... doughnuts?

cliffe_mafia

1,740 posts

269 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
s2art said:
Its the target culture itself thats bad. Mainly because the tagets fail to measure real outcomes. As POD said, who cares about a few minor littering offenses when people are scared to go to the city centre at night.
Also targets can only be measured after a crime is committed, so no points for preventing 5 burglaries.

apache

39,731 posts

315 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Owen Paterson, Shadow Roads Minister, said: “Speed cameras cannot detect inappropriate speed for the conditions. They can only enforce an arbitrary limit. We need human beings on the road to judge what’s dangerous and what’s not.”

Christ on a bike! this has been said on these forums for about 6 years now, are these idiots headhunted from McDonalds?


Witchfinder

6,388 posts

283 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
At least it sounds like people are starting to talk common sense on the issue though. An encouraging sign that things are changing. I think Safespeed and the ABD have been doing great work, but it;s not over yet.

Jackass

135 posts

290 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Badboy_bazz said:
said:
“We have been calling for over two years for drink-driving and driving while disqualified to be given the same status in our policing statistics as the theft of a Kit Kat from a corner shop.”
Yep coz drink driving is the same as taking a kitkat!
Remember kids, kitkat theft wrecks lives.

What the hell are they all on? They should all be brought before a panel an made to explain why the police an DfT cannot work together to sort this country's roads out!
I think the implication is that drink driving isn't even considered as highly in statistics as Kit Kat theft.

NWTony

3,006 posts

259 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Badboy_bazz said:
said:
“We have been calling for over two years for drink-driving and driving while disqualified to be given the same status in our policing statistics as the theft of a Kit Kat from a corner shop.”
Yep coz drink driving is the same as taking a kitkat!
Remember kids, kitkat theft wrecks lives.

What the hell are they all on? They should all be brought before a panel an made to explain why the police an DfT cannot work together to sort this country's roads out!
Point missed by a mile?

s2art

18,942 posts

284 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
cliffe_mafia said:
s2art said:
Its the target culture itself thats bad. Mainly because the tagets fail to measure real outcomes. As POD said, who cares about a few minor littering offenses when people are scared to go to the city centre at night.
Also targets can only be measured after a crime is committed, so no points for preventing 5 burglaries.
Right. That should be shouted at every opportunity.

nicedude1976

2,685 posts

251 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
What irony. Reminds me of comrade G. Brown cirtisising petrol companies for taking too much profit, forgetting that his department takes 10 times more in the petrol tax for doing almost bloody nothing. Not to mention millions of stupid laws passed on by this govmnt that can put you into prison for so many silly things. Hate those pink fascists.

Double R

872 posts

261 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
"are these idiots headhunted from McDonalds?"

hold it there mate... at McDonalds are able to flip burgers and take orders... politicians are an utter waste of time

their class is purely self-serving (and they are doing a pretty good job at that)

the strategy of Camoron to win is to copy Labour (when Labour is at its low!) ... whilst the strategy at the time of New Labour was to become a bit more Tory

who needs these clowns? not only in UK but across the world I believe there is the need for a genuinely new and better class of politicians


NobleGuy

7,133 posts

246 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Witchfinder said:
At least it sounds like people are starting to talk common sense on the issue though. An encouraging sign that things are changing. I think Safespeed and the ABD have been doing great work, but it;s not over yet.
Nice to see a bit of infighting going on though. biggrin.
I reckon they should have a slap-fight to decide who's in the wrong.

apache

39,731 posts

315 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Double R said:
"are these idiots headhunted from McDonalds?"

hold it there mate... at McDonalds are able to flip burgers and take orders... politicians are an utter waste of time

their class is purely self-serving (and they are doing a pretty good job at that)

the strategy of Camoron to win is to copy Labour (when Labour is at its low!) ... whilst the strategy at the time of New Labour was to become a bit more Tory

who needs these clowns? not only in UK but across the world I believe there is the need for a genuinely new and better class of politicians
You get no argument from me there old chap. I don't intend voting for any of these wrs, neither do my kids or Mrs A

safespeed

2,983 posts

305 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
Guam said:
Are you sure this isnt a script from "Yes Minister"? Truly laughable and typical of politicians when running scared, oops we have screwed up I know lets spin the blame elsewhere and see if the public are dumb enough to buy it smile
Absolutely. And we get 2006 road deaths figures in two weeks time...

apache

39,731 posts

315 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
FishFace said:
The bang-on point Mr Hughes is making is that the Government have caused this situation.
He may be bang on with this one but he's way off with his intention to hide speed cameras

pies

13,116 posts

287 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
story said:
Interestingly, the move comes ahead of a case at the European Court of Human Rights on the 29th of this month over the ‘right to silence’ when the identity of a driver is requested during a speed camera prosecution.
Nothing else matters if this is upheld smileWhich it should

Lostusernamedamn

4,364 posts

237 months

Thursday 14th June 2007
quotequote all
So it's the BIB's fault is it? However, "...Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk has also made this comment: "I'm absolutely certain I know what's going on here - Department for Transport is attempting to deflect the blame for the spectacular failure of their road safety policies ahead of the 2006 road deaths figures..."

I expect it's a bit of both - their failure to hide their pretense of road safety when revenue is at the core of it is all becoming too obvious. laugh