6 points in one day! Advice needed..
Discussion
This weekend I was given 6 points and 120 quids worth of fines in one day.
The first one was justified as I was doing alot of mph over the 70 limit. The officer was going to ban me at first, but after alot of remorse and saying that I'd basically lose my job, he lets me off with 3 points and a 60 quid fine. I thought this was very good of him and I thought he was a very nice Policeman for being so understanding.
The second one is what really pisse.s me off. I'm basically driving past a marked police car, look at him and keep on driving. 5 minutes later im in the back of his panda car and he's telling me that I was on my Mobile phone and that im having 3 points and another FPN. I wasnt on my phone and I'm 100% positive of this, but the problem is that I was talking on my telephone on hands free approximatley 2 minutes before he would have seen me. If I get the phone records to try and dissprove it, I think the court would favour him as the time difference is too small. The Policeman was on his own in a patrol car and I suppose it could be my word against his, but knowing magistrates like I do they would probably take his side.
Is there anything I can do to not have this fine and 3 points, and would it be worth contesting it???
The first one was justified as I was doing alot of mph over the 70 limit. The officer was going to ban me at first, but after alot of remorse and saying that I'd basically lose my job, he lets me off with 3 points and a 60 quid fine. I thought this was very good of him and I thought he was a very nice Policeman for being so understanding.
The second one is what really pisse.s me off. I'm basically driving past a marked police car, look at him and keep on driving. 5 minutes later im in the back of his panda car and he's telling me that I was on my Mobile phone and that im having 3 points and another FPN. I wasnt on my phone and I'm 100% positive of this, but the problem is that I was talking on my telephone on hands free approximatley 2 minutes before he would have seen me. If I get the phone records to try and dissprove it, I think the court would favour him as the time difference is too small. The Policeman was on his own in a patrol car and I suppose it could be my word against his, but knowing magistrates like I do they would probably take his side.
Is there anything I can do to not have this fine and 3 points, and would it be worth contesting it???
Did you have anything in your hand that might look like a phone? Did you make any movements that might have looked like you putting the phone down as you drove past him? Is there anything that the officer could have misinterpreted as holding or having been holding a phone? Can you think of anything that could have led him to his conclusion?
Peter Ward said:
Did you have anything in your hand that might look like a phone? Did you make any movements that might have looked like you putting the phone down as you drove past him? Is there anything that the officer could have misinterpreted as holding or having been holding a phone? Can you think of anything that could have led him to his conclusion?
Im really not sure, maybe I was resting my hand against my head as I came into view, and he thought he saw something that wasnt there. I work with the Community Police alot in my area anyway as part of my job and ive never seen him, so maybe he's trying to make a good impression on his superiors, I dont know...If you have a hands-free kit in your car:-
a) Did you show it to him at the time?
b) If not, do you still have the receipt/installation receipt/something similar?
Further:-
c) Can ONE copper convict of this just on their word alone? (Assuming that the phone bill evidence is equivocal, which it could be argued so here...this is still a 'beyond reasonable doubt' crime, isn't it?!?)
a) Did you show it to him at the time?
b) If not, do you still have the receipt/installation receipt/something similar?
Further:-
c) Can ONE copper convict of this just on their word alone? (Assuming that the phone bill evidence is equivocal, which it could be argued so here...this is still a 'beyond reasonable doubt' crime, isn't it?!?)
havoc said:
If you have a hands-free kit in your car:-
a) Did you show it to him at the time?
b) If not, do you still have the receipt/installation receipt/something similar?
Further:-
c) Can ONE copper convict of this just on their word alone? (Assuming that the phone bill evidence is equivocal, which it could be argued so here...this is still a 'beyond reasonable doubt' crime, isn't it?!?)
These are really good points.a) Did you show it to him at the time?
b) If not, do you still have the receipt/installation receipt/something similar?
Further:-
c) Can ONE copper convict of this just on their word alone? (Assuming that the phone bill evidence is equivocal, which it could be argued so here...this is still a 'beyond reasonable doubt' crime, isn't it?!?)
When you are pulled over and you really are innocent of something, make every effort to mention your case fully at the time, preferably immediately after you are accused.
(Although Vonhosen will correct me to the exact usage) the officer MUST record your exact response.
Thus in this example if the OP has pointed out the hands free kit to the offer at the time, and even demonstrated its usage then not only does this disuade the officer from taking it further in that he *may* be mistaken, but secondly if it does come to court then you have a very good 'alibi' that the officer themselves will have to admit through cross-examination.
My gut feeling on this is that if the OP is innocent then he has every chance of being vindicated. This would be a reasonably simple case to self-defend.
This thread explains perfectly why when I get in the car, my hand held phone is switched off and sitting in the pocket attached to the backpack which itself is sitting in the boot.
Typical of New Labour legislation.
Tackle an issue that any reasonable person says needs sorting.
By time enabling legislation and statutory instruments are in place the situation is such that
a) a sector of the population that was never a problem in the first place is now criminalised *
b) the real problem children carry flicking the V's as the legislation is not enforced because i) it is to some extent uneforceable or ii) resources are insufficient to enforce realistically at the level of the offences being committed.
c) police-public alienation increases.
Typical of New Labour legislation.
Tackle an issue that any reasonable person says needs sorting.
By time enabling legislation and statutory instruments are in place the situation is such that
a) a sector of the population that was never a problem in the first place is now criminalised *
b) the real problem children carry flicking the V's as the legislation is not enforced because i) it is to some extent uneforceable or ii) resources are insufficient to enforce realistically at the level of the offences being committed.
c) police-public alienation increases.
- * As if I need to give an example but, let's say someone stuck in stationary traffic jam on way to pickup kids, short phone call to say will be late and make alternative arrangements. Twofold safety increase at no increase of actual risk whilst using phone. Less pressure on them in their delayed journey, so able to concentrate more and take less risks to make up time. Vulnerable minors also properly catered for.
Flat in Fifth said:
This thread explains perfectly why when I get in the car, my hand held phone is switched off and sitting in the pocket attached to the backpack which itself is sitting in the boot.
Typical of New Labour legislation.
Tackle an issue that any reasonable person says needs sorting.
By time enabling legislation and statutory instruments are in place the situation is such that
a) a sector of the population that was never a problem in the first place is now criminalised *
b) the real problem children carry flicking the V's as the legislation is not enforced because i) it is to some extent uneforceable or ii) resources are insufficient to enforce realistically at the level of the offences being committed.
c) police-public alienation increases.
You know the score FiF, I'm afraid it's guilty until proven innocent these days Typical of New Labour legislation.
Tackle an issue that any reasonable person says needs sorting.
By time enabling legislation and statutory instruments are in place the situation is such that
a) a sector of the population that was never a problem in the first place is now criminalised *
b) the real problem children carry flicking the V's as the legislation is not enforced because i) it is to some extent uneforceable or ii) resources are insufficient to enforce realistically at the level of the offences being committed.
c) police-public alienation increases.
- * As if I need to give an example but, let's say someone stuck in stationary traffic jam on way to pickup kids, short phone call to say will be late and make alternative arrangements. Twofold safety increase at no increase of actual risk whilst using phone. Less pressure on them in their delayed journey, so able to concentrate more and take less risks to make up time. Vulnerable minors also properly catered for.
And I still don't know how they got that one under the radar.
I'd say that if you are innocent then you should use the system in place for you to express this - take it to court with your evidence.
It could be an easy mistake to make for a person (BiB) sat in a stationary car watching a moving car drive past and to see a driver move his hand away from the side of his head and deduce 'phone', whereas actually it's just a driver moving his hand away from the side of his head. I'd introduce this as causing a reasonable doubt which should mean that you won't be convicted. Get a picture taken from inside a car where he was sat and take some snaps of cars that are in the position you were in perhaps. Of course, it may cost you more in money terms in the long run, but at least you won't have the points. Just demonstrate that a mistake could have been made.
The usual caveat of 'I may be talking out of my arse' applies, however if you're innocent then let them prove you're guilty - they can't. Because you're innocent...
It could be an easy mistake to make for a person (BiB) sat in a stationary car watching a moving car drive past and to see a driver move his hand away from the side of his head and deduce 'phone', whereas actually it's just a driver moving his hand away from the side of his head. I'd introduce this as causing a reasonable doubt which should mean that you won't be convicted. Get a picture taken from inside a car where he was sat and take some snaps of cars that are in the position you were in perhaps. Of course, it may cost you more in money terms in the long run, but at least you won't have the points. Just demonstrate that a mistake could have been made.
The usual caveat of 'I may be talking out of my arse' applies, however if you're innocent then let them prove you're guilty - they can't. Because you're innocent...
havoc said:
If you have a hands-free kit in your car:-
a) Did you show it to him at the time?
b) If not, do you still have the receipt/installation receipt/something similar?
Further:-
c) Can ONE copper convict of this just on their word alone? (Assuming that the phone bill evidence is equivocal, which it could be argued so here...this is still a 'beyond reasonable doubt' crime, isn't it?!?)
a) I did not show it to him at the timea) Did you show it to him at the time?
b) If not, do you still have the receipt/installation receipt/something similar?
Further:-
c) Can ONE copper convict of this just on their word alone? (Assuming that the phone bill evidence is equivocal, which it could be argued so here...this is still a 'beyond reasonable doubt' crime, isn't it?!?)
b) The handsfree came free with my phone when I bought it, so I'd have the recipt for it.
c)Im going to get the details from my service provider tonight. It would be my word against his, but the magistrates usually side with the Police.
What was interesting is that I was not cautioned at any time by the officer. So am I right in thinking that anyting that was said would be inadmissable??
Edited to add - If this matter was brought to court, could they use my first ticket against me aswell. i.e make out im a bad driver etc..
Edited by GavDav on Wednesday 27th June 11:08
GavDav said:
...c)Im going to get the details from my service provider tonight. It would be my word against his, but the magistrates usually side with the Police...
Not true, if you are telling the truth.A am a veteran of defending myself against the word of not one but three corroborating police officers, and winning.
Put it this way, if you take the stand and you are believed you will not lose the case as this is more than reasonable doubt.
One piece of evidence will be your testimony of what you did, so either you are are willing to purjure yourself or you KNOW the truth. The only other piece of evidence is what the police officer THINKS he saw from the side of the road.
Yours is stronger.
Mrs Thestag was stopped on White Lion Road Amersham some months ago by the local rozzers.
Plod: “do you know why we stopped you?”
MTS “no!”
Plod: “you were on your telephone?”
MTS “Oh and what phone would that be then?”
Plod “We saw you on the phone as you drove past us”
MTS opens car boot and produces a brand new phone still in packaging that she had just bought in Watford “this is my phone, can you explain how I could possibly have been on it?”
Plod “You must have another phone in the car!”
MTS “Nope, I did have another phone but it was stolen from this very car only last week while parked at Burnham Beeches, the thief smashed the back window climbed into the boot area and stole my handbag (containing phone) and some kids toys, I reported it and your lot couldn’t have given less of a shit, here is the crime no!”
Plod “Hmmmmm do you mind if we check your car for the second phone!”
MTS by now very pissed off indeed “if you really have this much time to waste why can’t you waste it parked up in Burnham Beeches area frightening away the local pondlife, check the car if you feel you must but I assure you will not find a phone!”
Plod - spend next few minutes looking at each other shrugging shoulders a lot before saying “ok you can carry on”
MTS “and that is an apology is it?”
Had the phone been in the car and ignoring the conversation above the onus would have been on MTS to prove to Plod that she wasn’t on the phone.
Innocent til proven guilty my arse! More like guilty until you cough up!
Back on topic Sounds like you were very lucky indeed on the speeding offence so maybe Karma is at work here!!
Plod: “do you know why we stopped you?”
MTS “no!”
Plod: “you were on your telephone?”
MTS “Oh and what phone would that be then?”
Plod “We saw you on the phone as you drove past us”
MTS opens car boot and produces a brand new phone still in packaging that she had just bought in Watford “this is my phone, can you explain how I could possibly have been on it?”
Plod “You must have another phone in the car!”
MTS “Nope, I did have another phone but it was stolen from this very car only last week while parked at Burnham Beeches, the thief smashed the back window climbed into the boot area and stole my handbag (containing phone) and some kids toys, I reported it and your lot couldn’t have given less of a shit, here is the crime no!”
Plod “Hmmmmm do you mind if we check your car for the second phone!”
MTS by now very pissed off indeed “if you really have this much time to waste why can’t you waste it parked up in Burnham Beeches area frightening away the local pondlife, check the car if you feel you must but I assure you will not find a phone!”
Plod - spend next few minutes looking at each other shrugging shoulders a lot before saying “ok you can carry on”
MTS “and that is an apology is it?”
Had the phone been in the car and ignoring the conversation above the onus would have been on MTS to prove to Plod that she wasn’t on the phone.
Innocent til proven guilty my arse! More like guilty until you cough up!
Back on topic Sounds like you were very lucky indeed on the speeding offence so maybe Karma is at work here!!
for your trouble. Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff