M4 (and probably other motorway) warning signs
Discussion
Drove up the M4 yesterday afternoon
All the way up from the A404 junction right up to the M25 junction were signs saying
"Warning - Obstruction 50MPH) and all the simpler signs just displaying "50". Then after the M25 no more signs...
The road was clear, not much traffic, no obstructions, in fact nothing at all, not even a breakdown on the hard shoulder!!
Surely its one of the most important jobs to switch the signs off if there was an incident? I simply do not believe them now as time and time again there is nothing at all there!
I cant be the only one that thinks this?
All the way up from the A404 junction right up to the M25 junction were signs saying
"Warning - Obstruction 50MPH) and all the simpler signs just displaying "50". Then after the M25 no more signs...
The road was clear, not much traffic, no obstructions, in fact nothing at all, not even a breakdown on the hard shoulder!!
Surely its one of the most important jobs to switch the signs off if there was an incident? I simply do not believe them now as time and time again there is nothing at all there!
I cant be the only one that thinks this?
I've gone through this before, but here goes again..........
If someone calls in saying that there's something in the c/way, usually (if you're lucky!) they only know which junctions they are between, so 50's and either debris or obstruction are set between the afor-said junctions. these can ONLY be cleared if either a police patrol, HATO patrol calls up that scene is clear, or if the obstruction/debris has been seen to be removed on CCTV (we do get MOP's stopping to remove large items......ie, furniture!)
The call could have got his locations incorrect. happens regularly!
The obstruction/debris could have been hit by a vehicle and carried away, flicked out of the c/way etc.
As soon as a patrol calls up to say c/way clear, or no trace, then we have 3 mins to clear the signals and update the system to say we've done it, if it's longer than that, supervisors start asking questions.
Signals are not left on willy-nilly, but usually because the problem has gone and we don't know yet.
Again, if YOU call something in, PLEASE use the ERT (Emergency Roadside Telephone) you will talk directly to the person who will set the signals, so they know just what questions to ask you to get the correct location.
If you go through 999, you'll get someone in a police control room that's no idea about motorways, and will only note what you as the caller says, (and that's usually wrong) then they pass it to us, and we scratch our heads, curse etc. because of the lack of good information.
PS, I'm nowhere near the motorway you mention!
edited for missing bits.
If someone calls in saying that there's something in the c/way, usually (if you're lucky!) they only know which junctions they are between, so 50's and either debris or obstruction are set between the afor-said junctions. these can ONLY be cleared if either a police patrol, HATO patrol calls up that scene is clear, or if the obstruction/debris has been seen to be removed on CCTV (we do get MOP's stopping to remove large items......ie, furniture!)
The call could have got his locations incorrect. happens regularly!
The obstruction/debris could have been hit by a vehicle and carried away, flicked out of the c/way etc.
As soon as a patrol calls up to say c/way clear, or no trace, then we have 3 mins to clear the signals and update the system to say we've done it, if it's longer than that, supervisors start asking questions.
Signals are not left on willy-nilly, but usually because the problem has gone and we don't know yet.
Again, if YOU call something in, PLEASE use the ERT (Emergency Roadside Telephone) you will talk directly to the person who will set the signals, so they know just what questions to ask you to get the correct location.
If you go through 999, you'll get someone in a police control room that's no idea about motorways, and will only note what you as the caller says, (and that's usually wrong) then they pass it to us, and we scratch our heads, curse etc. because of the lack of good information.
PS, I'm nowhere near the motorway you mention!
edited for missing bits.
Edited by Gafferjim on Sunday 1st July 23:37
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Drove up the M4 yesterday afternoon
All the way up from the A404 junction right up to the M25 junction were signs saying
"Warning - Obstruction 50MPH) and all the simpler signs just displaying "50". Then after the M25 no more signs...
The road was clear, not much traffic, no obstructions, in fact nothing at all, not even a breakdown on the hard shoulder!!
Surely its one of the most important jobs to switch the signs off if there was an incident? I simply do not believe them now as time and time again there is nothing at all there!
I cant be the only one that thinks this?
Feel free not to believe them.All the way up from the A404 junction right up to the M25 junction were signs saying
"Warning - Obstruction 50MPH) and all the simpler signs just displaying "50". Then after the M25 no more signs...
The road was clear, not much traffic, no obstructions, in fact nothing at all, not even a breakdown on the hard shoulder!!
Surely its one of the most important jobs to switch the signs off if there was an incident? I simply do not believe them now as time and time again there is nothing at all there!
I cant be the only one that thinks this?
You'd be amazed at the damage caused by a car hitting a lorry wheel. It's not pretty.
(BTW, the signs didn't say "WARNING - OBSTRUCTION/50MPH", they said "OBSTRUCTION/SLOW DOWN" - if you're going to nitpick, be accurate in the first place)
Edited by CommanderJameson on Monday 2nd July 00:37
CommanderJameson said:
Feel free not to believe them.
You'd be amazed at the damage caused by a car hitting a lorry wheel. It's not pretty.
But that's the problem, isn't it. After experiencing 99 false alarms from the matrix signs, you're less likely to believe the 1 genuine alert which might save you from a trip to the bodyshop, hospital, or morgue. Clearly we need to have respect for the matrices, but human nature being what it is we're not going to retain that respect unless we believe the signs are giving us valid information more often than not. And whilst I appreciate what GafferJim is saying wrt the need to confirm obstructions etc. have been cleared before resetting the signs, my experience suggests the impression we're given is of signs left showing out of date information for far too long.You'd be amazed at the damage caused by a car hitting a lorry wheel. It's not pretty.
twister said:
CommanderJameson said:
Feel free not to believe them.
You'd be amazed at the damage caused by a car hitting a lorry wheel. It's not pretty.
But that's the problem, isn't it. After experiencing 99 false alarms from the matrix signs, you're less likely to believe the 1 genuine alert which might save you from a trip to the bodyshop, hospital, or morgue. Clearly we need to have respect for the matrices, but human nature being what it is we're not going to retain that respect unless we believe the signs are giving us valid information more often than not. And whilst I appreciate what GafferJim is saying wrt the need to confirm obstructions etc. have been cleared before resetting the signs, my experience suggests the impression we're given is of signs left showing out of date information for far too long.You'd be amazed at the damage caused by a car hitting a lorry wheel. It's not pretty.
One of the classics is seeing the MIDAS message "QUEUE AHEAD" but no queue; no, there's no queue because the causing factor (say, an artic pulling slowly out of services) has cleared and people saw the signage and just lifted off a bit, thereby avoiding the compression wave caused by excessive braking. Job done, but you should hear the whinging.
Having spent a significant amount of time in RCC control rooms (and PCO control rooms before that) I can tell you that things don't just get set and left; every setting is considered and there are specific criteria that have to be fulfilled before they can be cleared, as GJ points out. The HA operators do a good job for shit money, and I have a lot of respect for them (except when they moan about the bit of the system I'm involved with, of course...)
motco said:
I get quite irrationally irritated by the signs on the southbound M6 that claim that there is congestion after J11 but that the toll road is clear. When you get to J11 and beyond it is clear. A blatent ployplea to boost toll road income? Surely not!
Fixed that for you.The company running the M6 Toll is not having happy fun, financially speaking
motco said:
I get quite irrationally irritated by the signs on the southbound M6 that claim that there is congestion after J11 but that the toll road is clear. When you get to J11 and beyond it is clear. A blatent ploy to boost toll road income? Surely not!
Mmmmmm! I know what you mean! All I can say is, that message isn't put on by our RCC, but by the NTCC (Nation Traffic Control Centre), if you go the "old route" and there's no congestion, then call up the HA Hail line ( 08457 50 40 30 )and complain, they'll get them sorted. The more of you that do this, will obviously make them take more notice.PS. I also won't use the Toll road, I think the prices are a rip off now (my opinion, and I'm entitled to it!
twister said:
But that's the problem, isn't it. After experiencing 99 false alarms from the matrix signs, you're less likely to believe the 1 genuine alert which might save you from a trip to the bodyshop, hospital, or morgue. Clearly we need to have respect for the matrices, but human nature being what it is we're not going to retain that respect unless we believe the signs are giving us valid information more often than not. And whilst I appreciate what GafferJim is saying wrt the need to confirm obstructions etc. have been cleared before resetting the signs, my experience suggests the impression we're given is of signs left showing out of date information for far too long.
Well I'm sorry but it'll always be this way, we HAVE to set signals if something is reported. Unless it's come from a "confirmed reliable source" ie PC, HATO, HA contractor, then you'll always see 50's (unless in roadworks or where there is mandatory speed limits lower than 70)So there could be absolutely nothing there, or there could be a HGV on it's side across all lanes, or a million other reasons.
As CJ says, slow down a bit, leave more room from the veh in front, and watch what's happening up front more, it could just save your life, at the most it will put you back a minute or two on your journey.
I will add, that if you see a lane closure, either red "X" or wickets showing a lane closure, obey those whatever you do.
the best one was when they close the M4 Eastbound between the A34 and A4 Reading...
So of course, huge tailback and queue to get off the M4 at the A34 (with the usual roadworks there)..
And these very expensive signs... DONT TELL YOU UNTIL YOUR PASSED THE LAST JUNCTION.. so instead of being able to get off a junction early and avoid the hour long queue (at 6am) to get off the motorway, your stuck.
gee, thanks.
So of course, huge tailback and queue to get off the M4 at the A34 (with the usual roadworks there)..
And these very expensive signs... DONT TELL YOU UNTIL YOUR PASSED THE LAST JUNCTION.. so instead of being able to get off a junction early and avoid the hour long queue (at 6am) to get off the motorway, your stuck.
gee, thanks.
was on the motorway a few months ago and was driving through roadworks with a 40 limit.
About every 500 yards were large 40 signs.
Then about 50 yards after a 40 sign is a matrix sign saying End.
So you could be forgiven for speeding up.
Then in about 200 yards is a 40 sign again.
If there had been Specs average speed cameras and I had sped up at the end sign I would probably be £60 poorer with 3 extra points.
About every 500 yards were large 40 signs.
Then about 50 yards after a 40 sign is a matrix sign saying End.
So you could be forgiven for speeding up.
Then in about 200 yards is a 40 sign again.
If there had been Specs average speed cameras and I had sped up at the end sign I would probably be £60 poorer with 3 extra points.
odyssey2200 said:
was on the motorway a few months ago and was driving through roadworks with a 40 limit.
About every 500 yards were large 40 signs.
Then about 50 yards after a 40 sign is a matrix sign saying End.
So you could be forgiven for speeding up.
Then in about 200 yards is a 40 sign again.
If there had been Specs average speed cameras and I had sped up at the end sign I would probably be £60 poorer with 3 extra points.
Was there any signs on before it? if not it sounds like it was a faulty sign, and who knows, the roadworks could have been the cause or were to be the cure (ie repairing cabling)About every 500 yards were large 40 signs.
Then about 50 yards after a 40 sign is a matrix sign saying End.
So you could be forgiven for speeding up.
Then in about 200 yards is a 40 sign again.
If there had been Specs average speed cameras and I had sped up at the end sign I would probably be £60 poorer with 3 extra points.
Anything like this, if you'd been napped, and complained about the sign, the system could have been checked, and if what you're saying was correct, the summonds would have been quashed.
This has happened in our area, were the setting kept altering back to "standard" instead of the lower setting.
Gafferjim said:
If you go through 999, you'll get someone in a police control room that's no idea about motorways, and will only note what you as the caller says, (and that's usually wrong) then they pass it to us, and we scratch our heads, curse etc. because of the lack of good information.
Perhaps the quality of information could be improved if motorway users had more information about where they were when they needed it. If you report a problem on your mobile (hands-free of course) the control room naturally asks where you are. You look around and... there's nothing to help you. You can only remember passing a junction a few miles back. No wonder there is a lot of head scratching! Clearly numbering matrix signs and overbridges might be a start, e.g. Bridge 10W, Matrix 40E.
If there are long gaps where neither exist a form of milepost could be used.
Dogwatch said:
Gafferjim said:
If you go through 999, you'll get someone in a police control room that's no idea about motorways, and will only note what you as the caller says, (and that's usually wrong) then they pass it to us, and we scratch our heads, curse etc. because of the lack of good information.
Perhaps the quality of information could be improved if motorway users had more information about where they were when they needed it. If you report a problem on your mobile (hands-free of course) the control room naturally asks where you are. You look around and... there's nothing to help you. You can only remember passing a junction a few miles back. No wonder there is a lot of head scratching! Clearly numbering matrix signs and overbridges might be a start, e.g. Bridge 10W, Matrix 40E.
If there are long gaps where neither exist a form of milepost could be used.
Dogwatch said:
Gafferjim said:
If you go through 999, you'll get someone in a police control room that's no idea about motorways, and will only note what you as the caller says, (and that's usually wrong) then they pass it to us, and we scratch our heads, curse etc. because of the lack of good information.
Perhaps the quality of information could be improved if motorway users had more information about where they were when they needed it. If you report a problem on your mobile (hands-free of course) the control room naturally asks where you are. You look around and... there's nothing to help you. You can only remember passing a junction a few miles back. No wonder there is a lot of head scratching! Clearly numbering matrix signs and overbridges might be a start, e.g. Bridge 10W, Matrix 40E.
If there are long gaps where neither exist a form of milepost could be used.
Can I call up the control room and say:
"I'm not drink-driving, I'm keeping a safe distance and I'm wearing my seatbelt. Now can you turn those useless, distracting signs off (especially the ones in f***ing Welsh)."
Matrix signs might have more attention paid to them if they weren't abused in this way.
"I'm not drink-driving, I'm keeping a safe distance and I'm wearing my seatbelt. Now can you turn those useless, distracting signs off (especially the ones in f***ing Welsh)."
Matrix signs might have more attention paid to them if they weren't abused in this way.
Dogwatch said:
Clearly numbering matrix signs and overbridges might be a start, e.g. Bridge 10W, Matrix 40E.
If there are long gaps where neither exist a form of milepost could be used.
Matrix/gantry and bridges are marked! Bridges will have a marker post number like 269/5 painted on them. Matrix/gantry have a number something like 9245A. Every 100m there is a white/blue post with numbers on it (OK - a bit hard to read at night....)If there are long gaps where neither exist a form of milepost could be used.
Every emergency phone (about every mile, but more around junctions) has a number on it defining its location e.g. 8347B.
Have you looked?
Some motorway sections have a blue sign on a post every 500m along the verge eg. M6 275.5 A. This is very useful for passing mobile phoners to give location.
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