Police - limited resources, yet overkill last night.?!?
Discussion
Old(ish) guy next door and his 22y.o. son were having a major domestic last night on their doorstep. Couldn't see any real violence (wasn't watching really though), but the shouting was going on for a while despite the rain.
Anyway, after about 20-30mins we hear sirens and the wife jokes that someone's called the police. Except they had...2 cars and 4 coppers (one car (van?) looked like a dog unit too!) turned up just for this.
Why?!? A single panda with 2 coppers I can understand, but double that?!?
PS - background is that the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial...but he's not a big lad and to my mind isn't THAT dangerous...I'm not especially worried about him and I'm no fighter.
Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
Anyway, after about 20-30mins we hear sirens and the wife jokes that someone's called the police. Except they had...2 cars and 4 coppers (one car (van?) looked like a dog unit too!) turned up just for this.
Why?!? A single panda with 2 coppers I can understand, but double that?!?
PS - background is that the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial...but he's not a big lad and to my mind isn't THAT dangerous...I'm not especially worried about him and I'm no fighter.
Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
havoc said:
PS - background is that the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial...but he's not a big lad and to my mind isn't THAT dangerous...I'm not especially worried about him and I'm no fighter.
Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
Guess so...Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
Troesma said:
havoc said:
PS - background is that the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial...but he's not a big lad and to my mind isn't THAT dangerous...I'm not especially worried about him and I'm no fighter.
Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
Guess so...Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
I dont thing the exact height/weight/fighting ability is discussed on the 999 call, only that a guy with history of violence and assault is causing trouble. He could be 6ft 6 and 20 stone and fired up/drunk. 4 guys would be best, and if bringing dogs means that he will back down without a fight is even better!
When I read the title and then the first few lines, I was expecting at least half a dozen cars, an armed response car and a helicopter.
Two adult males fighting in the street, two officers per male.
If, as you say, you're not a fighter then you'll not know how difficult it can be to subdue someone on a 1 to 1 basis, even if you have the advantage of spray, baton, cuffs etc. The potential for the Officer to get injured is high, and the potential for the offender to get injured is high. It's far easier to control a violent individual using two Officers and there is much less likelyhood of injury.
Two people fighting - two Officers per person - four Officers sounds just about right.
At least you're lucky enough to live somewhere where they can find four Officers to send. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've been sent to incidents like that on my own, with no back-up.
Two adult males fighting in the street, two officers per male.
If, as you say, you're not a fighter then you'll not know how difficult it can be to subdue someone on a 1 to 1 basis, even if you have the advantage of spray, baton, cuffs etc. The potential for the Officer to get injured is high, and the potential for the offender to get injured is high. It's far easier to control a violent individual using two Officers and there is much less likelyhood of injury.
Two people fighting - two Officers per person - four Officers sounds just about right.
At least you're lucky enough to live somewhere where they can find four Officers to send. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've been sent to incidents like that on my own, with no back-up.
Its an unknown risk. Bear in mind you are going to someones house with all the obvious risks of weapons about.
Also an unknown number of people inside the house who may be unhappy about police being there.
Also depends on what the caller said to the call takers, could have been "violent domestic" or anything and resources dispatched accordingly.
Could have been markers on the address for any reason.
Alot of unknowns there tbh which is why more units attend than necesary in order to back each other up.
rather have more units than needed at a potentially violent job and then get them to resume once we knew what we were dealing with than have it all kick off and someone get hurt whilst waiting for backup to arrive.
You can always drop everything to back up colleagues and go back to what you were doing if its all in order.
Also an unknown number of people inside the house who may be unhappy about police being there.
Also depends on what the caller said to the call takers, could have been "violent domestic" or anything and resources dispatched accordingly.
Could have been markers on the address for any reason.
Alot of unknowns there tbh which is why more units attend than necesary in order to back each other up.
rather have more units than needed at a potentially violent job and then get them to resume once we knew what we were dealing with than have it all kick off and someone get hurt whilst waiting for backup to arrive.
You can always drop everything to back up colleagues and go back to what you were doing if its all in order.
Hmm...maybe you're right.
But AFAIK the son is known to the police (and they'd have known he's not a properly violent sort...his previous aren't for violence, more for teenage t
ttery), from what I could see things weren't violent.
I suppose one of the neighbours could have phoned things in and sounded overly worried (there's some old dears across the road), it's just knowing the chap and the family I'd have left well alone...they've had arguments before, it's blown over, no harm done, no blood spilt.
But AFAIK the son is known to the police (and they'd have known he's not a properly violent sort...his previous aren't for violence, more for teenage t
ttery), from what I could see things weren't violent.I suppose one of the neighbours could have phoned things in and sounded overly worried (there's some old dears across the road), it's just knowing the chap and the family I'd have left well alone...they've had arguments before, it's blown over, no harm done, no blood spilt.
R_U_LOCAL said:
When I read the title and then the first few lines, I was expecting at least half a dozen cars, an armed response car and a helicopter.
I've had all those at my house at 8am with a search warrant - investigating a toy BB gun sighted in the background of a photo of something for sale on eBay.Think it was only 3 cars, but definatly the armed response unit and the complimentary helicopter.
If I had to go to a shout (and I am not a cop, so it does seem rather unlikely....) then I think I would be happier knowing we outnumbered the potential arrestees (if there is such a word). After all, a straight 2 on 2 fight may be a problem when one walked into the house and came out with a baseball bat....
Jasandjules said:
If I had to go to a shout (and I am not a cop, so it does seem rather unlikely....) then I think I would be happier knowing we outnumbered the potential arrestees (if there is such a word). After all, a straight 2 on 2 fight may be a problem when one walked into the house and came out with a baseball bat....
Ah, but the BiB are armed with wooden sticks to beat them, stun guns to freak them, and vicious dogs to eat them.So.
When the Police turn up - they get slated for sending too many people.
"the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial"
When the police zap you for 34 in a 30 they should be doing "proper" policing? (such as ... say ... attending a domestic)
... poor cops can't win can they?
When the Police turn up - they get slated for sending too many people.
"the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial"
When the police zap you for 34 in a 30 they should be doing "proper" policing? (such as ... say ... attending a domestic)
... poor cops can't win can they?
havoc said:
Old(ish) guy next door and his 22y.o. son were having a major domestic last night on their doorstep. Couldn't see any real violence (wasn't watching really though), but the shouting was going on for a while despite the rain.
Anyway, after about 20-30mins we hear sirens and the wife jokes that someone's called the police. Except they had...2 cars and 4 coppers (one car (van?) looked like a dog unit too!) turned up just for this.
Why?!? A single panda with 2 coppers I can understand, but double that?!?
PS - background is that the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial...but he's not a big lad and to my mind isn't THAT dangerous...I'm not especially worried about him and I'm no fighter.
Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
Anyway, after about 20-30mins we hear sirens and the wife jokes that someone's called the police. Except they had...2 cars and 4 coppers (one car (van?) looked like a dog unit too!) turned up just for this.
Why?!? A single panda with 2 coppers I can understand, but double that?!?
PS - background is that the son is due in court in a couple of weeks for sentencing following an assault of some kind. He's been in trouble before for a few things (has a suspended sentence), and is expecting a custodial...but he's not a big lad and to my mind isn't THAT dangerous...I'm not especially worried about him and I'm no fighter.
Would his current status (on-bail, I guess) have any bearing?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, anarchy for the UK! The streets will run with blood etc etc.I think most people are aware that there are 3 types of Police:
1) The 'real' police: ones who investigate real crimes, violence, robbery etc.
2) The 'image' police, who do ridiculous stuff like arresting action figures, spending thousands interviewing people with regard to the misappropiration of a Pound. (see other threads). Generally chasing quotas, they are a lot of parasites (they take from the country and give nothing in return).
3) The 'revenue' police - the ones who are out solely to raise money for the government, mainly most of TrafPol and others.
Nothing wrong with the first one (which I guess is most of the BIB on here), but everyone hates the second two, and for good reason. Problem is they all get tossed into the same basket.
Sorry, I apologise. That's the problem with pidgeonholing people. I didn't mean to blanket smear a whole department, and I agree most of you are the good guys, it's just the impression that we are given, mainly down to a bad use of resourses (from the outside, it looks like things could and should be prioritised better).
Still, there is an impression that there are parts of the service that exist purely to raise revenue with little in regard to common sense enforcement on safety grounds, and the impression that this is growing.
Still, there is an impression that there are parts of the service that exist purely to raise revenue with little in regard to common sense enforcement on safety grounds, and the impression that this is growing.
I detained an intruder (1 person) at work a while ago, and 7 Police cars turned up (after a delay of 20mins). There was everything - 'panda' type cars, traffic, unmarked and a van. It got ridiculous in the end, they couldn't all fit in our car park and were blocking the road.
My Dad was in the Fire Brigade and they used to have a 'Stop' message system, so that further units could be called off. I asked one of the Bib if they couldn't stop more officers attending and he looked baffled.
My Dad was in the Fire Brigade and they used to have a 'Stop' message system, so that further units could be called off. I asked one of the Bib if they couldn't stop more officers attending and he looked baffled.
Deva Link said:
I detained an intruder (1 person) at work a while ago, and 7 Police cars turned up (after a delay of 20mins). There was everything - 'panda' type cars, traffic, unmarked and a van. It got ridiculous in the end, they couldn't all fit in our car park and were blocking the road.
My Dad was in the Fire Brigade and they used to have a 'Stop' message system, so that further units could be called off. I asked one of the Bib if they couldn't stop more officers attending and he looked baffled.
You can cancel patrols. Depends how close they are that they may continue out of interest or to ensure that officers are safe. My Dad was in the Fire Brigade and they used to have a 'Stop' message system, so that further units could be called off. I asked one of the Bib if they couldn't stop more officers attending and he looked baffled.
Local brigade to me will not cancel once called.
The Tuscan Rat said:
On your own admitance you were not watching, so can you be 100% certain there was no knife seen
No. But I know Andrew, and he's not the sort of guy to use a knife, esp. not on his Dad. Nor a baseball bat - they're father and son, FFS!What I did see was a father having had enough (of what I've no idea...kicking his g/f out maybe (oh...she was there too, standing around in the rain looking totally lost?!?) and a son letting off steam back.
The Tuscan Rat said:
You say below your neighbour has previous, so would you be happy taking him on alone, plus any unknown risks in the house ??
Yes. His previous ISN'T violent crime (see below), as I said above...he's not that sort of person. He's just a silly kid (yes, 22, but he acts about 17 still) who doesn't think through the consequences of his actions and fancies himself the 'lad'. AIUI, his previous is twoccing, breaches of the peace, and I think something burglary/theft related...might again have been a car rather than a house. Personally I think he's a tt, but he's not dangerous.The Tuscan Rat said:
You say assault of some kind, again you don't have the facts, yet you deem that this only needs " A Panda ". Was the assault with a baseball bat ?? You don't know. In fact what do you know about your neighbours past ? What warning signals does he have / his father / or the address show on the PNC ?
I do know the facts...well, as he tells them (HIS facts, I guess, but he seemed pretty frank about it) - some drunk started physically hitting his (Andrew's) girlfriend, so Andrew settled things. No weapons involved. I didn't go into detail as I didn't see it as adding much to the OP. And if the story IS as he told, I'd probably have done the same thing myself.As to their past...good point. AIUI he hasn't any violence convictions, and I sincerely doubt he's done more than been in the odd pub fight. His Dad...again, no idea...bit more of a dark horse.
That said, I HAVE taken the comments of the serving BiB on here, and I can understand the desire for numerical superiority in an unknown situation, and I agree the police would have been told a 'chinese whispers' version of events.
But honestly TR, your response to me was a little OTT, wasn't it?!? It wasn't like I was saying anything against you personally...
I think it is a little unfair to call traffic cops the revenue police. In general if a marked (or unmarked) traffic car pulls you for speeding then it is a fair cop. The gatsos etc and your-man-in-a-van are quite a different kettle of fish, in general a traffic cop will not necessarily book you for doing 33 in a 30 or even 80 on the motorway, they can be reasonable, as for the cameras well.....
I am not a traffic cop !!
I must say if I wasn't in my chosen profession then a traffic cop would be up there with F1 driver or pro-golfer. There is nothing I like better than watching the traffic cops (on Road Wars etc) from nicking scrotes with deathtrap cars, no MOT, insurance, Licence, pissed, stoned..etc..etc (it is a real shame they cannot give them a hiding at the side of the road before crushing their car)
I am not a traffic cop !!
I must say if I wasn't in my chosen profession then a traffic cop would be up there with F1 driver or pro-golfer. There is nothing I like better than watching the traffic cops (on Road Wars etc) from nicking scrotes with deathtrap cars, no MOT, insurance, Licence, pissed, stoned..etc..etc (it is a real shame they cannot give them a hiding at the side of the road before crushing their car)
The Tuscan Rat said:
havoc said:
But honestly TR, your response to me was a little OTT, wasn't it?!? It wasn't like I was saying anything against you personally...
No, I don't feel it was OTT, you start a thread with a title of..." Police - Limited resources, yet overkill last night.?!? "
Havoc, I feel that there is enough BIB bashing on PH, that this kind of thread is not needed.
...sorry Havoc but I have not set out to upset you, but think about how hard our job is and then look at it from our view rather than trying to provoke a reaction on PH.
All I was doing was questioning whether local resources were being best used...perfectly reasonable given how few police we've got in this country! The answers I've had have satisfied me that there was a sensible reason behind it which I didn't fully appreciate beforehand.
That you've taken it so personally yourself suggests you feel a little 'under pressure' about your chosen career. Not my problem!
Well said there TR and Dizeee. My two pence worth is that the only predictable thing about people are that they are unpredictable. My war wounds consist of a broken finger which is now paralised due to severed tendon (drunk chav girl and I was on my own fighting her and three of her mates) and a slash wound to kidney area (minor thankfully) and this was a double crewed attendance to a fear for welfare - knife pulled from nowhere as the mad dunk lady was helped to her feet.
On the other side of the coin, if it is a quiet night then units will deploy en mass due to boredom.
On the other side of the coin, if it is a quiet night then units will deploy en mass due to boredom.
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