Sect 59 thread - Abuse of Power
Discussion
OK a little history. As a poor student in 1978, I was driving a V6 engined Ford Corsair (yes I mean V6 not V4, we did a transplant with a dead Granada). Amercian Graffiti had just run at the pics, and I was the driver for a Friday night in Brighton with a g/f and some mates. Having been to a few pubs, and bars, we went for a "cruise" along the front. Some of the boys thought it would be amusing to "moon" the tourists on the promenade. No real harm done to anyone. As we were leaving Brighton at about midnight, I see blue flashing lights in my mirror, and hear sirens blairing out, so I move to the left thinking there is a fire or major RTA ahead. Seconds later, the blue flashing light, overtakes and then does a handbrake assisted stop, reminisent of of Jacks's Granada in the Sweeney.
Within seconds two more blue lights arrive, and forcibly removed my loose trousered friends and me from my comfortable if somewhat vague Ford. We were all arrested, pretty much stripped and then taken to the holding cells. We were all accused (except the g/f) of indecent exposure. We all denied it in time honoured fashion, and at about 5.00am when the desk seargents changed shift we were all released.
Three months later I receive a summons for:
1. Driving with no licence
2. driving with no insurance
3. driving with no road tax
4. driving with no MOT.
5. Exceeding the 30 MPH speed limit
6. failure to produce licence
7. failure to produce insurance
8. failure to produce MOT.
Now, I was 100% legal at the time, and was driving at 25 - 30 mph. Having sold the car I had to go to some effort to attain copies of MOT, Insurance, and road tax, plus copy of my licence to refute charges 1-4.
I then went to court to argue (the truth) that I was not, at any time asked to produce any documents, and the lying SOB BiB showed as evidence a carbon copy of the ticket to produce that he never gave me. In those days you did not have to sign for the ticket, so a dishonest BiB could simlpy write one out and throw away the driver copy.
Result was £30 fine for speeding and £20 for each non produce offence. (I think it was before points were issued).
Mt point is power is abused, and if it is made easier to abuse, then it will be abused even more. In this case not just one lying SOB, but at least half a dozen, who could not be arsed to pursue the real "crime" but go for the easy kill with a few simple lies.NOw where have I heard that accusation recently?
Never trusted a copper since.
BobT
Within seconds two more blue lights arrive, and forcibly removed my loose trousered friends and me from my comfortable if somewhat vague Ford. We were all arrested, pretty much stripped and then taken to the holding cells. We were all accused (except the g/f) of indecent exposure. We all denied it in time honoured fashion, and at about 5.00am when the desk seargents changed shift we were all released.
Three months later I receive a summons for:
1. Driving with no licence
2. driving with no insurance
3. driving with no road tax
4. driving with no MOT.
5. Exceeding the 30 MPH speed limit
6. failure to produce licence
7. failure to produce insurance
8. failure to produce MOT.
Now, I was 100% legal at the time, and was driving at 25 - 30 mph. Having sold the car I had to go to some effort to attain copies of MOT, Insurance, and road tax, plus copy of my licence to refute charges 1-4.
I then went to court to argue (the truth) that I was not, at any time asked to produce any documents, and the lying SOB BiB showed as evidence a carbon copy of the ticket to produce that he never gave me. In those days you did not have to sign for the ticket, so a dishonest BiB could simlpy write one out and throw away the driver copy.
Result was £30 fine for speeding and £20 for each non produce offence. (I think it was before points were issued).
Mt point is power is abused, and if it is made easier to abuse, then it will be abused even more. In this case not just one lying SOB, but at least half a dozen, who could not be arsed to pursue the real "crime" but go for the easy kill with a few simple lies.NOw where have I heard that accusation recently?
Never trusted a copper since.
BobT
FishFace said:
Who cares about an incident in 1978?
Policing was a different world then. In those days if you didn't want to get fitted up you wouldn't let people do stupid things in your car.
The BIB still don't need you to sign your producer as they could just write "refused" in the box, should they choose to.
No doubt in 2030 we will be saying 2007 it was a different world back then, the abuses of power will still continue only in different forms.Policing was a different world then. In those days if you didn't want to get fitted up you wouldn't let people do stupid things in your car.
The BIB still don't need you to sign your producer as they could just write "refused" in the box, should they choose to.
As a student in 1979 £90 was a lot of money.
I did not take part in the "loutish behaviour", but as I was the only one driving, I was the easy "fit up".
I went to court to plead not guilty. The police said that i was stopped for speeding, and did not mention the "loutish behaviour". The magistrates merely accepted the police version of the story. No gatso, camera or any other evidence of spedng just theor word.
The incident has not been eating away for 30 years, it was just brought back having read the Sect 59 thread.
When you get "fitted up" you might feel differently.
BobT
I did not take part in the "loutish behaviour", but as I was the only one driving, I was the easy "fit up".
I went to court to plead not guilty. The police said that i was stopped for speeding, and did not mention the "loutish behaviour". The magistrates merely accepted the police version of the story. No gatso, camera or any other evidence of spedng just theor word.
The incident has not been eating away for 30 years, it was just brought back having read the Sect 59 thread.
When you get "fitted up" you might feel differently.
BobT
An injustice, however minor, can undermine ones confidence in what is supposed to be a JUST democracy. It makes the place look corrupt.
I would feel bitter if I was set up like that, I might not let it eat away at my soul, but I would have felt let down by a system that is supposed to be fair.
I would feel bitter if I was set up like that, I might not let it eat away at my soul, but I would have felt let down by a system that is supposed to be fair.
I don't find it remotely funny. Why were the original offences for which the OP and his friends were arrested not followed up? Why instead were compltely different crimes fabricated? So the bent coppers could teach them a lesson?
This might be a fairly trivial abuse of power in the scheme of things, but it should never have happened. If anything Section 59 would appear to makes abuse of power easier for the police rather than more difficult.
This might be a fairly trivial abuse of power in the scheme of things, but it should never have happened. If anything Section 59 would appear to makes abuse of power easier for the police rather than more difficult.
Mr2Mike said:
I don't find it remotely funny. Why were the original offences for which the OP and his friends were arrested not followed up? Why instead were compltely different crimes fabricated? So the bent coppers could teach them a lesson?
This might be a fairly trivial abuse of power in the scheme of things, but it should never have happened. If anything Section 59 would appear to makes abuse of power easier for the police rather than more difficult.
He should make a complaint.This might be a fairly trivial abuse of power in the scheme of things, but it should never have happened. If anything Section 59 would appear to makes abuse of power easier for the police rather than more difficult.
Providing, of course, that all the retired Officers involved haven't died of old age yet.
The worrying thing about this power from my point of view is that it gives the BiB an awfully big hammer to hit people with if they want to throw their toys out of the pram. They don't need to worry about pressing a charge of obstruction, breach of the peace etc. They just need to take offence at your actions or attitude, and then they can act as jury and executioner. Hopefully very few BiB will abuse the power in this way but we can be certain that some will. Just as the anti-terrorism powers get perverted and used to arrest people who don't toe the line at a party conference. How long before we find a new bureau of political officers checking that we are giving the right level of enthusiastic support to the government policies, with this power ready to punish us if we don't measure up? An absurd scenario of course, but not as absurd as it seemed before this new power was introduced.
The terroism Act is an intersting one. I read recently that the police have used the powers in the Act 1000s of times so far. Not to prevent terrorism but in their dealings with non terrorist members of the public. If it's a fair cop and someone has clearly committed a crime then fine, deal with them. But using powers that were brought in to deal with terroists is abuse of those new laws and should be reserved for suspected terrorists only.
The OP has every right to harbour bitterness for this even though it was 29 years ago. Lets not forget that when you get fitted up the criminal record you gain lasts beyond your mortal years! While some people might find it funny to see someone get screwed unfairly by the law it's not a laughing matter when your chosen employment paths get blocked (for good), you cant get a visa to live in certain other countries, you cant work with children, etc etc. The list goes on....
The OP has every right to harbour bitterness for this even though it was 29 years ago. Lets not forget that when you get fitted up the criminal record you gain lasts beyond your mortal years! While some people might find it funny to see someone get screwed unfairly by the law it's not a laughing matter when your chosen employment paths get blocked (for good), you cant get a visa to live in certain other countries, you cant work with children, etc etc. The list goes on....
skymaster said:
The terroism Act is an intersting one. I read recently that the police have used the powers in the Act 1000s of times so far. Not to prevent terrorism but in their dealings with non terrorist members of the public. If it's a fair cop and someone has clearly committed a crime then fine, deal with them. But using powers that were brought in to deal with terroists is abuse of those new laws and should be reserved for suspected terrorists only.
The OP has every right to harbour bitterness for this even though it was 29 years ago. Lets not forget that when you get fitted up the criminal record you gain lasts beyond your mortal years! While some people might find it funny to see someone get screwed unfairly by the law it's not a laughing matter when your chosen employment paths get blocked (for good), you cant get a visa to live in certain other countries, you cant work with children, etc etc. The list goes on....
We see people on here wishing for the good old days of Policing (20+ years ago) all the time. Well it wasn't all as good back then & the Police are more accountable now than they have ever been.The OP has every right to harbour bitterness for this even though it was 29 years ago. Lets not forget that when you get fitted up the criminal record you gain lasts beyond your mortal years! While some people might find it funny to see someone get screwed unfairly by the law it's not a laughing matter when your chosen employment paths get blocked (for good), you cant get a visa to live in certain other countries, you cant work with children, etc etc. The list goes on....
How can you tell if someone is 'definitely' a terrorist then, if you are only going to use say terrorism search legislation on those that definitely are ?
I would imagine terrorism search powers have been used quite a bit & I would hope that the public are supportive of that in the current climate. I would hope that any terrorist moving around is worried that they may be searched & frankly I have no problem if I get stopped & searched during the effort to find them.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 22 July 22:11
Well Vonhosen, you cant tell if someons is definately a terrorist. Thats why I was careful to use the phrase 'suspected terrorists'. There was a case of two elderly ladies, white english ones with prim proper queens enlish accents, who were protesting against the Iraq war in the countryside surrounding a military base of some sort. When they refused to comply with police they were arrested under the terroism Act.
Some logic would dictate that someone with bomb making gear in their garage might be suspected of terrorist plots. However a 19 year old idealistic student protesting outside an air base probably isn't a terrorist. But.... you never can tell.
Some logic would dictate that someone with bomb making gear in their garage might be suspected of terrorist plots. However a 19 year old idealistic student protesting outside an air base probably isn't a terrorist. But.... you never can tell.
skymaster said:
Well Vonhosen, you cant tell if someons is definately a terrorist. Thats why I was careful to use the phrase 'suspected terrorists'. There was a case of two elderly ladies, white english ones with prim proper queens enlish accents, who were protesting against the Iraq war in the countryside surrounding a military base of some sort. When they refused to comply with police they were arrested under the terroism Act.
Some logic would dictate that someone with bomb making gear in their garage might be suspected of terrorist plots. However a 19 year old idealistic student protesting outside an air base probably isn't a terrorist. But.... you never can tell.
You can never tell indeed. I mean it's not like a NHS doctor would be a terrorist is it ?Some logic would dictate that someone with bomb making gear in their garage might be suspected of terrorist plots. However a 19 year old idealistic student protesting outside an air base probably isn't a terrorist. But.... you never can tell.
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