Civil Penalty Notice - Is it enforceable?
Discussion
Chaps - interested in your views...
I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
havoc said:
Where are you? London has some funny rules compared to the rest of the country.
Also depends who's asking for the money:-
- local council = could be a problem;
- private outfit = tell them to go whistle.
It was on an industrial estate in Livingston (Scotland) so no funny London rules thankfully. The company concerned are Town and City Parking Ltd...I don't think they're a local council, although of course they might be contracted by a local council. Don't know.Also depends who's asking for the money:-
- local council = could be a problem;
- private outfit = tell them to go whistle.
It's only £20 if I pay within 10 days...but I'm buggered if I'm going to pay up unless it's a forgone loss.
If it was my land, and someone was parking on it without my permission, could I stick a Civil Penalty notice on said car and then go to court over it and expect to win the penalty and costs?
TTwiggy said:
Isn't this one of those 'contract law' cases - i.e they have to prove that the owner of the car parked it there in order to extract money? Interesting that they say 'only the owner of the vehicle may remove the ticket' - is doing so an admission of guilt then?...
If this is a civil matter (and I'm sure it must be given the wording on the ticket) then there's no guilty/innocent...and it's bo
ocks for them to say it's an offence...only the CPS can prosecute people for statutory offences. It's what makes me think that they rely on gullible people just paying up, thinking it's official. Having said that, I guess if they went to a civil (small claims) court, and produced pictures of my car on their land...then maybe the civil judge would award it to them. Presumably it would be down to me to erode their evidence by showing reasonable cause to believe that it wasn't in a restricted area or that there were no or insufficient signage etc (in civil cases I seem to remember it's "Balance of Probability" rather than "Reasonable Doubt"
. The thing is it's a principle thing...I don't give two shits about £20/£40. I just hate paying these companies, because you just know the guys that run the company are going to be leeches. On the other hand, if I cause them trouble, I might find my car trashed next time I park near work!
My bold...
So lets get this right... you parked in an area where there was signage telling you that parking was prohibited and you got pinged for it and you want to know how to 'get out of it'?
Unless you can prove the signage was missing or unclear as to where it applied to, you are on the losing team I'm afraid (and by your posting it does appear as if you DID know where the prohibited area was).
But the following may be of help...
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/IveR...
If you don't pay up they will apply to the DVLC and obtain your the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle then pursue the matter through the courts to the bitter end...believe me!
jezzaaa said:
Chaps - interested in your views...
I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...[b]just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.[/b]
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
You bet your sweet bippy a Civil Penalty can be enforced.I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...[b]just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.[/b]
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
So lets get this right... you parked in an area where there was signage telling you that parking was prohibited and you got pinged for it and you want to know how to 'get out of it'?
Unless you can prove the signage was missing or unclear as to where it applied to, you are on the losing team I'm afraid (and by your posting it does appear as if you DID know where the prohibited area was).
But the following may be of help...
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/IveR...
If you don't pay up they will apply to the DVLC and obtain your the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle then pursue the matter through the courts to the bitter end...believe me!
oldsoak said:
My bold...
So lets get this right... you parked in an area where there was signage telling you that parking was prohibited and you got pinged for it and you want to know how to 'get out of it'?
Unless you can prove the signage was missing or unclear as to where it applied to, you are on the losing team I'm afraid (and by your posting it does appear as if you DID know where the prohibited area was).
But the following may be of help...
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/IveR...
If you don't pay up they will apply to the DVLC and obtain your the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle then pursue the matter through the courts to the bitter end...believe me!
Well it's not quite that cut and dried...I only realised it was prohibited when I got the ticket, and then looked to find the signage. The sign doesn't make any reference to where you're not allowed to park, and there's no markings or anything...except those small white lines on the kurb either side. The sign makes no mention of said white markings and the markings themselves are not labelled. I mean, they could be nothing to do with it...maybe a workman was marking the road for some reason, which they do do. Agree with your sentiments re them being able to pursue it... thanks.jezzaaa said:
Chaps - interested in your views...
I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...[b]just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.[/b]
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
You bet your sweet bippy a Civil Penalty can be enforced.I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...[b]just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.[/b]
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
So lets get this right... you parked in an area where there was signage telling you that parking was prohibited and you got pinged for it and you want to know how to 'get out of it'?
Unless you can prove the signage was missing or unclear as to where it applied to, you are on the losing team I'm afraid (and by your posting it does appear as if you DID know where the prohibited area was).
But the following may be of help...
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/IveR...
If you don't pay up they will apply to the DVLC and obtain your the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle then pursue the matter through the courts to the bitter end...believe me!
oldsoak said:
My bold...
So lets get this right... you parked in an area where there was signage telling you that parking was prohibited and you got pinged for it and you want to know how to 'get out of it'?
Unless you can prove the signage was missing or unclear as to where it applied to, you are on the losing team I'm afraid (and by your posting it does appear as if you DID know where the prohibited area was).
But the following may be of help...
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/IveR...
If you don't pay up they will apply to the DVLC and obtain your the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle then pursue the matter through the courts to the bitter end...believe me!
You're not involved in a parking enforcement company are you??jezzaaa said:
Chaps - interested in your views...
I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...[b]just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.[/b]
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
You bet your sweet bippy a Civil Penalty can be enforced.I got a sticky on my window today on a private industrial estate. Ticket is Marked "CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE" and at the bottom it's got "WARNING - It is an offence for any person other than the driver to remove this notice". There's no yellow lines etc...[b]just a sign that says parking is prohibited except with permission etc...but it doesn't actually state where parking is prohibited.
Up until a certain point, everyone's allowed to park on the road. Then there's a small white line on the kurb denoting, I guess, the boundary between public and private road. I was parked hbehind the white line i.e. probably in the private bit.[/b]
Question is, can a Civil Penalty be enforced, or are the company concerned just reckoning on most people paying up, thinking it's an official one?? It says that they'll take civil legal action if the fine isn't paid...has anyone on here actually gone to court (presumably small claims court) and been done? Is there a legal loop hole to tell them to stick it?
Cheers,
J.
Cheers,
J.
So lets get this right... you parked in an area where there was signage telling you that parking was prohibited and you got pinged for it and you want to know how to 'get out of it'?
Unless you can prove the signage was missing or unclear as to where it applied to, you are on the losing team I'm afraid (and by your posting it does appear as if you DID know where the prohibited area was).
But the following may be of help...
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/IveR...
If you don't pay up they will apply to the DVLC and obtain your the address of the registered keeper of the vehicle then pursue the matter through the courts to the bitter end...believe me!
Jasandjules said:
Unless they have a picture of the driver entering the land and/or exiting the drivers door then they will struggle to prove who entered into the contract to park there. Ask them for the evidence.......
Mind you, I suppose the liability would remain with the RK wouldn't it? Remember this isn't a public matter...it's civil law which is quite different.bearing in mind this was in Scotland, I thought Scottish law was pretty awkward for such practices?
There's lots of stuff on the internet about private parking tickets, but it's generally English law related.
ie (nice letter here):
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking...
There's lots of stuff on the internet about private parking tickets, but it's generally English law related.
ie (nice letter here):
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking...
School of thought as follows (I am not a solicitor)
Private land - invitation to park if you accept the conditions hence the signage.
By doing so THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the Land Owner and under 'Privity of Contract' one cannot be held to be responsible to a form of contract that you were not privy to. hence the driver is responsible and not the Reg Keeper (unless he was the driver and they can prove it).
If they can prove driver then they can take civil proceedings at County Court to recover the 'debt'
It has been known for the private enforcement contractors to get owner details from DVLA if the ticket is not paid and to send the Reg Keeper a demand. But if they cannot prove who the driver was the contract is not with the Reg keeper.
Do you see an avenue?
Book yourself a session with a CAB Solicitor (England free) run the facts past him and see what he makes of it.
Private land parking, as I understand it does not invoke the Parking Adjudicator who pronounces on LA Parking (PCN) matters.
dvd
Private land - invitation to park if you accept the conditions hence the signage.
By doing so THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the Land Owner and under 'Privity of Contract' one cannot be held to be responsible to a form of contract that you were not privy to. hence the driver is responsible and not the Reg Keeper (unless he was the driver and they can prove it).
If they can prove driver then they can take civil proceedings at County Court to recover the 'debt'
It has been known for the private enforcement contractors to get owner details from DVLA if the ticket is not paid and to send the Reg Keeper a demand. But if they cannot prove who the driver was the contract is not with the Reg keeper.
Do you see an avenue?
Book yourself a session with a CAB Solicitor (England free) run the facts past him and see what he makes of it.
Private land parking, as I understand it does not invoke the Parking Adjudicator who pronounces on LA Parking (PCN) matters.
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Tuesday 24th July 15:07
Dwight VanDriver said:
School of thought as follows (I am not a solicitor)
Private land - invitation to park if you accept the conditions hence the signage.
By doing so THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the Land Owner and under 'Privity of Contract' one cannot be held to be responsible to a form of contract that you were not privy to. hence the driver is responsible and not the Reg Keeper (unless he was the driver and they can prove it).
If they can prove driver then they can take civil proceedings at County Court to recover the 'debt'
It has been known for the private enforcement contractors to get owner details from DVLA if the ticket is not paid and to send the Reg Keeper a demand. But if they cannot prove who the driver was the contract is not with the Reg keeper.
Do you see an avenue?
Book yourself a session with a CAB Solicitor (England free) run the facts past him and see what he makes of it.
Private land parking, as I understand it does not invoke the Parking Adjudicator who pronounces on LA Parking (PCN) matters.
dvd
DVD - you're a star. That's exactly what I needed. Just need to check it's the same in Scotland.Private land - invitation to park if you accept the conditions hence the signage.
By doing so THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the Land Owner and under 'Privity of Contract' one cannot be held to be responsible to a form of contract that you were not privy to. hence the driver is responsible and not the Reg Keeper (unless he was the driver and they can prove it).
If they can prove driver then they can take civil proceedings at County Court to recover the 'debt'
It has been known for the private enforcement contractors to get owner details from DVLA if the ticket is not paid and to send the Reg Keeper a demand. But if they cannot prove who the driver was the contract is not with the Reg keeper.
Do you see an avenue?
Book yourself a session with a CAB Solicitor (England free) run the facts past him and see what he makes of it.
Private land parking, as I understand it does not invoke the Parking Adjudicator who pronounces on LA Parking (PCN) matters.
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Tuesday 24th July 15:07
Ta,
Dwight VanDriver said:
School of thought as follows (I am not a solicitor)
Private land - invitation to park if you accept the conditions hence the signage.
By doing so THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the Land Owner and under 'Privity of Contract' one cannot be held to be responsible to a form of contract that you were not privy to. hence the driver is responsible and not the Reg Keeper (unless he was the driver and they can prove it).
If they can prove driver then they can take civil proceedings at County Court to recover the 'debt'
It has been known for the private enforcement contractors to get owner details from DVLA if the ticket is not paid and to send the Reg Keeper a demand. But if they cannot prove who the driver was the contract is not with the Reg keeper.
Do you see an avenue?
Book yourself a session with a CAB Solicitor (England free) run the facts past him and see what he makes of it.
Private land parking, as I understand it does not invoke the Parking Adjudicator who pronounces on LA Parking (PCN) matters.
dvd
Nice thought there DVD...but...Private land - invitation to park if you accept the conditions hence the signage.
By doing so THE DRIVER enters into a contract with the Land Owner and under 'Privity of Contract' one cannot be held to be responsible to a form of contract that you were not privy to. hence the driver is responsible and not the Reg Keeper (unless he was the driver and they can prove it).
If they can prove driver then they can take civil proceedings at County Court to recover the 'debt'
It has been known for the private enforcement contractors to get owner details from DVLA if the ticket is not paid and to send the Reg Keeper a demand. But if they cannot prove who the driver was the contract is not with the Reg keeper.
Do you see an avenue?
Book yourself a session with a CAB Solicitor (England free) run the facts past him and see what he makes of it.
Private land parking, as I understand it does not invoke the Parking Adjudicator who pronounces on LA Parking (PCN) matters.
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Tuesday 24th July 15:07
"Under the Road Traffic Act 1991, the owner of a vehicle is liable for the penalty charge when a Penalty Charge Notice is issued to a vehicle.
The owner may or may not be the person who was actually driving at the time. If, for example, your partner, family member or colleague is driving the vehicle, this does not mean that you have stopped being the owner.
The Act says the owner is presumed to be the registered keeper. The local authority will usually check with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority in Swansea to see who was registered as keeper of the vehicle at the date the Penalty Charge Notice was issued. This person will receive the Notice to Owner."
http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/IveReceived/owne...
Edited by oldsoak on Tuesday 24th July 15:25
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