Tuesday 24th July 2007

More cameras

Cycle lane cameras to catch drivers straying into lanes

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Drivers could be fined £120 (£60 if you pay up quickly) under new plans to install roadside cameras catching cars that drove, even for a brief moment, into a cycle lane.

The plans give local authorities the power to install more roadside cameras to capture drivers who erroneously stray into the lanes; although some existing cameras may be used for the job.

The powers have been proposed for London authorities first, and then the plans could be rolled out nationally.

Transport for London (TfL) thinks that issuing penalties to drivers who appear to be ignoring the designated lanes will promote a safer image for cycling in central London.

The police have already got the power to issue fines for the offence, but only three were issued for the year ending at the close of June. TfL are proposing to decriminalise the offence and make it legal for civilians to monitor the cameras and issue the fines by post.

The new powers are expected to be included in a London local authorities Bill in November. The body that represents London’s 33 boroughs, London Councils, is supporting the bill.

London Councils director of transport, Nick Lester, commented: “This will bring enforcement to an area where there isn’t any enforcement at the moment. Keeping drivers out of cycle lanes will encourage more people to cycle because there will be a greater perception that it is safe to do so.”

Lester also commented that cycle boxes in front of cars at traffic lights were there to make cyclists more visible to drivers, as a large number of cyclist deaths are due to drivers not being able to see them while turning left.

Green transport adviser to Ken Livingstone, Jenny Jones, seethed: “I find it infuriating that the police are not using the powers they have. Far too many motorists ignore the white lanes marking out cycle lanes and they need to be seen to be punished. Better enforcement will give people, particularly women, more confidence that they will be protected if they take up cycling.”

The AA’s  head of transport policy, Paul Watters disagrees: “We would accept some surveillance on the busiest cycle routes if there was a thorough review of all lanes and those which are not working were removed. Authorities must exercise discretion because drivers may need to go into cycle lanes briefly to keep traffic moving. In city traffic, a minor misdemeanour has to occur sometimes for common sense reasons.”

Source: The Times

[kevin ritson]

Don't let common sense and roadcraft get in the way of revenue generation!

Why are women cyclists put off particularly? Or are male drivers now being accused of discriminating between who they ignore on the road???

Perhaps ID and cameras to catch cyclists ignoring white lines and jumping red lights would save a few needless deaths...

Edited by kevin ritson on Tuesday 24th July 16:11

[A1GOY]

kevin ritson said:

Perhaps ID and cameras to catch cyclists ignoring white lines and jumping red lights would save a few needless deaths...

Edited by kevin ritson on Tuesday 24th July 16:11

Remember they can't find cyclists after they've wobbled away. Drivers, however, are easily traceable. We get blamed if they get squashed, and we get fined for going into their lanes. Why is it that we pay road tax and cyclists don't? I'm confused.

[Petrol_fumes]

Sorry guys but I think your miles off on this one. I'm all against more camera's on the roads but this time it is actually for safety. I cycle to work every day in London and i've been hit twice by drivers not looking left and once by someone parked in the green boxes. It's not hard not to get caught....

As for getting bitter about cyclists having no visible ID or skipping lights... come on... there are bigger things to moan about and many of the guys i know who skip lights only do so when its safe and/or to get a safe get away before traffic

[kevin ritson]

It's never safe to jump a red light. My mum was nearly knocked down by a cyclist doing this and she had abuse hurled at her. But he was saving the planet so that's OK.

[A1GOY]

So traffic lights are allowed to be ignored if it's safe to go?
If a driver crossed red lighs on an empty road, while it was perfectly safe, they'd still get done by a camera.
Surely cyclists are not above the law?

And surely if a driver is indicating left, the cyclist would have seen it and hung back? If the driver wasn't indicating, then yes - the driver must burn.

Edited by A1GOY on Tuesday 24th July 16:32

Edited by A1GOY on Tuesday 24th July 16:33

[Who me ?]

[quote=Petrol_fumes

As for getting bitter about cyclists skipping lights...
[/quote]

Like the bloke who follows someone on an NSL road at 40, finds a decent straight to pass on , gets past fast to find a Camera van asking him for £60 ----if the car has broken the law and deserves a ticket - so does the cyclist skipping red lights. Trouble is that the car has some ID -number plate .

Personally I think it's more control freakery , and certainly more into cash generation ,than safety . (like everything else this govt does)

Edited by Who me ? on Tuesday 24th July 16:35

[Jasandjules]

What a shock, public tax generator number 1 gets to pay more cash for using the highway.

[Who me ?]

Jasandjules said:

What a shock, public tax generator number 1 gets to pay more cash for using the highway.

How else to make up the loss of revenue from company drivers smoking less ciggies :laugh

[esselte]

Petrol_fumes said:

. I cycle to work every day in London and i've been hit twice by drivers not looking left and once by someone parked in the green boxes. It's not hard not to get caught....

So you undertake cars when they are turning left?Surely some form of self preservation instinct should kick in and you should be ready for them to do this.More reason for having to have a test to go on the road on a cycle.(If only for your own good)

[Alex Gurr]

You only have to look at Amsterdam to see the controlled chaos that huge numbers of cars and bikes mixed together causes.

I hate the idea of more cameras everywhere, but think (responsible) cycling should be encouraged in towns and cities. Safety is obviously a big concern in london, but at the end of the day it is only really an issue because of the unatural number of people all cramed into one small area.

[Petrol_fumes]

Don't get me wrong, skipping red lights isnt right what ever your driving/riding, you skip, you get a ticket... no moaning

but speeding isnt always dangerous and often the pain from mistake is reaped upon those to choose to speed, however when drivers impinge on those green boxes and lanes they/we, in our big safe bits of metal put cyclists, who have no choice in the matter, at danger

Provided these camera's are used with common sense (i.e. not giving people tickets for this at 2am etc) then personally, i don't see the problem for the vast majority of motorists

[Petrol_fumes]

esselte said:

Petrol_fumes said:

. I cycle to work every day in London and i've been hit twice by drivers not looking left and once by someone parked in the green boxes. It's not hard not to get caught....

So you undertake cars when they are turning left?Surely some form of self preservation instinct should kick in and you should be ready for them to do this.More reason for having to have a test to go on the road on a cycle.(If only for your own good)

come on... get real testing cyclists is about as realistic as licencing breasts

The reason i was hit was 1) someone not indicating in a queue of traffic, not using their mirrors and just turning off, and 2, in the correct lane at a juntion in south and some daft mini driver chooseing to park in the green box, change lanes and drive straight into me.

...and cyclists are supposed to undertake cars when there is traffic... it's London and they are the rules of the road, the middle isn't an option

[kevin ritson]

Petrol_fumes said:

Provided these camera's are used with common sense (i.e. not giving people tickets for this at 2am etc) then personally, i don't see the problem for the vast majority of motorists

Problem is as the story says, even for a brief moment. So if you're on a busy road, the driver in front wants to turn right, sits as close to the middle of the road as possible but no-one is stopping to give way. If you check, notice there are no cyclists, then use an inch of the cycle lane to get by you'll get a fine.

And civilians enforcing the law! Great, so people will pursue their own agendas and vendettas...

Clearly it's a win-win for Ken, either he pockets loads of cash or the queues build up and he can justify another 10-mile C-Charge area.

Edited by kevin ritson on Tuesday 24th July 16:58

[Arj]

esselte said:

Petrol_fumes said:

. I cycle to work every day in London and i've been hit twice by drivers not looking left and once by someone parked in the green boxes. It's not hard not to get caught....

So you undertake cars when they are turning left?Surely some form of self preservation instinct should kick in and you should be ready for them to do this.More reason for having to have a test to go on the road on a cycle.(If only for your own good)

No, cars actually overtake cyclists and then turn left!

Anyway, why is there some sort of "us Vs them" thing going here? Loving cars does not justify the behaviour of some (well actually many) drivers!

I also cycle around London and regularly have to shout or tap a window as drivers are completely oblivious to the fact that they are about to hit me. I regularly see cars overtake me and slow down (whilst I am still between the car and the curb) to then suddenly move to the left. I have had buses overtake me to then cut me off and brake hard into a bus stop (which are usually in the middle of the street) and cabbies drive straight at me. If you think I'm joking - recently on the Mall I was riding in a straight line in the direction of Buckingham Palace, when a cab came towards me and turned into Horse Guards Road. Only problem was, that's exactly where I was at that moment. It was a bright afternoon, the Mall is as wide and open a street as you will ever find (bar motorways) and at 6'5" I'm not exactly inconspicuous. But he kept going! Only at the very last moment did he (almost literally) wake up when I shouted, with only about one foot distance to spare between me and the cab.

If these rules help to make car drivers more aware of other road users / cyclists, then I'm in favour!

Edited by Arj on Tuesday 24th July 17:03

[kevin ritson]

No-ones saying there aren't idiots on the road. Only that they can be in cars or on bikes. Weighting everything against those in cars is grossly unfair and only goes to perpetuate the myth that drivers are ripe for persecution.

For the record I own a bicycle. And yes, I have seen examples of stupidity. But I've witnessed as many, if not more people ignoring me when driving a small sportscar. Perhaps I should be free to jump lights in the Elise?

Edited by kevin ritson on Tuesday 24th July 17:02

[Trevparr]

Here we go again-more cameras!!!

Of course I believe in safety and not all car drivers are perfect but my God Cyclists can be terrible.They ride all over the pavements especially in London,they ignore traffic lights,they drive at night with no lights and of course if they get run over it's the poor motorists fault.I know that not all cyclists are like this but there's a hell of a lot who DO behave badly.Why don't they have a small charge for Cyclists to pay for their lanes in the city;I'm sure they do in certain other countries,why should the motorists pay,presumably out of our tax.

I love Britain but...........!!!

[Petrol_fumes]

Trevparr said:

.Why don't they have a small charge for Cyclists to pay for their lanes in the city;I'm sure they do in certain other countries,why should the motorists pay,presumably out of our tax.

I love Britain but...........!!!

because many of the cyclists already pay road tax too for their cars... they just choose not to always drive it

It's a crap situation and no-one is really a winner, it's just a shame we need them at all

[Arj]

Trevparr said:

Here we go again-more cameras!!!

Of course I believe in safety and not all car drivers are perfect but my God Cyclists can be terrible.They ride all over the pavements especially in London,they ignore traffic lights,they drive at night with no lights and of course if they get run over it's the poor motorists fault.I know that not all cyclists are like this but there's a hell of a lot who DO behave badly.Why don't they have a small charge for Cyclists to pay for their lanes in the city;I'm sure they do in certain other countries,why should the motorists pay,presumably out of our tax.

I love Britain but...........!!!

If cyclists ride at night without lights or on the pavement, they should be fined as well. As far as jumping lights is concerned, sadly I think that is the only way to safely get around London. If you are in the middle of a group of cars, drivers tend to focus on the other cars and forget about the cyclist, what leads to accidents. I guess that this is because people are not used to cyclists (yet) in this country. When I cycle in Holland I will always stop at a traffic light, but in London, in 9 out of 10 cases it's simply too dangerous.

[kevin ritson]

Arj said:

As far as jumping lights is concerned, sadly I think that is the only way to safely get around London.

And as long as you peddle that argument you'll never be taken seriously. Fact.

[Arj]

kevin ritson said:

Arj said:

As far as jumping lights is concerned, sadly I think that is the only way to safely get around London.

And as long as you peddle that argument you'll never be taken seriously. Fact.

Come cycling with me in central London and we'll talk again.