Not enough Traffic Officers - real ones!

[Scoop940]

You just don't see them much these days, I know the number has been reduced but have they gone too far, 2 incidents in the last 2 days..

Last night southbound M3 I passed a rolled over prison lorry in the exit of the Winchester services, couple of miles later and ambulance passes northbound, another couple of miles and another passes, then a good 5 mins after that a police V70 goes north ( At one hell of a rate of knots! ) Lord only knows how far he had had to come with the risks that high speed travel through busy traffic entails..

Then this morning, 2 incidents on the A31 eastbound, again no police in sight, traffic mayhem, after about 10 mins a police car heads west through busy traffic at high speed presumably to attend the incident(s)

Seems to me they are spread to far and wide these days and it can't be good for road safety, we seem to have got this so wrong, fine use HATO's to assist and speed camera's to blindly enforce arbituary limits if they must but the TO's shouldn't have been reduced so much... madness!

[RaksP]

they cant afford to pay for traffic po-po AND pay for all these cameras! the cameras are going to generate more money so thats why they go for them over traffic cops!

[Mr_annie_vxr]

RaksP said:

they cant afford to pay for traffic po-po AND pay for all these cameras! the cameras are going to generate more money so thats why they go for them over traffic cops!

Its not an either or. Cameras are self-funding.

[Mr_annie_vxr]

Scoop940 said:

You just don't see them much these days, I know the number has been reduced but have they gone too far, 2 incidents in the last 2 days..

Last night southbound M3 I passed a rolled over prison lorry in the exit of the Winchester services, couple of miles later and ambulance passes northbound, another couple of miles and another passes, then a good 5 mins after that a police V70 goes north ( At one hell of a rate of knots! ) Lord only knows how far he had had to come with the risks that high speed travel through busy traffic entails..

Then this morning, 2 incidents on the A31 eastbound, again no police in sight, traffic mayhem, after about 10 mins a police car heads west through busy traffic at high speed presumably to attend the incident(s)

Seems to me they are spread to far and wide these days and it can't be good for road safety, we seem to have got this so wrong, fine use HATO's to assist and speed camera's to blindly enforce arbituary limits if they must but the TO's shouldn't have been reduced so much... madness!

Depends on how long the incidents have been in progress for. If they have only happened in the past few minutes then add in the the 2-3 minutes taken to take call details and dispatch. Often ambulance service will get the call first. How many do you want? Are you wanting them every 2 or 3 miles? Again you cannot be sure that there were not other vehicles coming up behind you.

There are a number of crashes each day and at rush hour a larger number. There are in my force more on during the rush hour than at night.

In general though traffic units have been cut due to public demand that police spend more time catching real criminals. This has been fed back through the government and traffic units have been returned to area to deal with response incidents. There are a finite number of officers.

[RaksP]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

RaksP said:

they cant afford to pay for traffic po-po AND pay for all these cameras! the cameras are going to generate more money so thats why they go for them over traffic cops!

Its not an either or. Cameras are self-funding.

but surely you need money to put them up in the first place?? or do you buy them on HP?

[10 Pence Short]

I think the point is that funding for speed cameras was not directly taken from funding for traffic officers.

The emergence of speed cameras made it politically easier for already overstretched police forces to move their own funding away from traffic to other areas.

Speed cameras are still causal, but it's not been a case of having to have one or the other.

[Mr_annie_vxr]

10 Pence Short said:

I think the point is that funding for speed cameras was not directly taken from funding for traffic officers.

The emergence of speed cameras made it politically easier for already overstretched police forces to move their own funding away from traffic to other areas.

Speed cameras are still causal, but it's not been a case of having to have one or the other.

What he said.

[7db]

No, it's true, the cameras eat TrafPol. They bend down and *chomp*.
More cameras, fewer policemen.

They also eat driving standards and have caused the recent flooding.

[10 Pence Short]

I also hear a pair of SPECs were seen supplying illegal steroids to a number of riders in this years Tour de France.

[goskins17]

Some forces like Surrey, don't even police the motorway any more just leave it to the Hatos to deal, they take forever to get to the scene, then they call police. The managers of police traffic units feel that the Hatos can deal with the motorways, they have no enforcement powers, are slow to respond and when they do, are not efficient, they will spent more time putting out cones and lights, then dealing with the broken down car.

[Mr_annie_vxr]

goskins17 said:

Some forces like Surrey, don't even police the motorway any more just leave it to the Hatos to deal, they take forever to get to the scene, then they call police. The managers of police traffic units feel that the Hatos can deal with the motorways, they have no enforcement powers, are slow to respond and when they do, are not efficient, they will spent more time putting out cones and lights, then dealing with the broken down car.

Surrey are no longer paid by govt to police the motorway. The traffic units now police the towns.

[Vaux]

goskins17 said:

Some forces like Surrey, don't even police the motorway any more just leave it to the Hatos to deal, they take forever to get to the scene, then they call police. The managers of police traffic units feel that the Hatos can deal with the motorways, they have no enforcement powers, are slow to respond and when they do, are not efficient, they will spent more time putting out cones and lights, then dealing with the broken down car.

So many questions.......

"then they call police" - HATOs call for police if it's an injury RTC or some form of criminality is possible (drink driving say). There's no reason to get police for anything else.

"are slow to respond" - what's this comment based on? HA KPIs show TOs exceeding all KPIs. (I know you can make numbers prove anything, but, you've got to start somewhere).

"are not efficient" - again, based on what? Efficient at clearing RTCs? If it's moveable, we'll move it. Some things have to wait for recovery and then the lane(s) will be closed off. Trust me - some police are keener to close off lanes and sit and wait than HATOs.

"they will spent more time putting out cones and lights, then dealing with the broken down car" - See above.

[Mr_annie_vxr]

The first priority at an incident is to make the scene safe.

[Chrisgr31]

Vaux said:

So many questions.......

"then they call police" - HATOs call for police if it's an injury RTC or some form of criminality is possible (drink driving say). There's no reason to get police for anything else.

"are slow to respond" - what's this comment based on? HA KPIs show TOs exceeding all KPIs. (I know you can make numbers prove anything, but, you've got to start somewhere).

"are not efficient" - again, based on what? Efficient at clearing RTCs? If it's moveable, we'll move it. Some things have to wait for recovery and then the lane(s) will be closed off. Trust me - some police are keener to close off lanes and sit and wait than HATOs.

"they will spent more time putting out cones and lights, then dealing with the broken down car" - See above.

Well presumably HATOs are slower to get to accidents than police because they can't exceed the speed limit and don't have blue lights to clear the traffic in front. One advantage of the police going to an incident is that they will pass the other traffic who will be more alert as they are aware a police car passed them. Obviously that car may have done a U turn at the next junction etc, however I suspect many drivers are more alert for a while after a police car on an emergecy call passes. But if a HATO ar and Police car start from the same point the police will get there first!

HATOs may exceed their targets in getting to an incident but what are those targets? Equally if they are so successful at meeting targets that implies either the targets are too easy, or there are too many HATOs. Therefore wait for the government to save money by deciding to reduce their number!

It seems incredible that Surrey police are not resourced to police the motorway. So does that mean no speed checks on Surreys motorways? Also means you can drink and drive with impunity on the motorway as long as you don't crash!

I have nothing against HATOs but would assume that their role would be better if working with the Police rather than instead of them.

[Vaux]

Chrisgr31 said:

Well presumably HATOs are slower to get to accidents than police because they can't exceed the speed limit and don't have blue lights to clear the traffic in front. ....... But if a HATO ar and Police car start from the same point the police will get there first!

In absolute terms, yes - Police can drive twice as fast (roughly, not to mention all the superior driving skills for going fast round corners/through red lights etc. when turning at roundabouts) and on a clear road would get there in half the time it takes a HATO. But.....there are more HATOs out on the road than Police (in my region), so by the time the coppers press record for Emmerdale and bomb-burst out of their hut, the HATO could be on scene! Where the system really works is for RTCs/live lane breakdowns that happen close to a HATO patrol - it's a minute or two to stop traffic and clear the vehicles to get the motorway running again. I don't care if you're PC Milton, you're not going to beat that.

Chrisgr31 said:

HATOs may exceed their targets in getting to an incident but what are those targets? Equally if they are so successful at meeting targets that implies either the targets are too easy, or there are too many HATOs.

There are KPIs such as x% of calls must be responded to/cleared up in y/z minutes sort of thing. It's what some manager gets paid to think up and administer......

There's another way to look at the KPIs? If current HATOs are out-performing, maybe they should have additional tasks to do.....

Chrisgr31 said:

I have nothing against HATOs but would assume that their role would be better if working with the Police rather than instead of them.

A lot of it is working with though. Most times now HATOs are sent first to reported pedestrians on the motorway. Because most of the time the peds have gone and it's cheaper to waste our time than Police. But if the peds are still there we will deal with them or call Police if required. If HATOs find abandoned cars with no tax/incorrect VRM, Police are informed and they can make an easy result for finding a stolen car etc.
HATOs all want to see more RPU on the roads.

PS - nice post.

[goskins17]

I have seen how HATOs deal with incidents many times, some are very good. There just seems to be a lack of common sense sometimes. Do you need ever sign and cone out of the car to deal with a break down on the hardshoulder. The average time for a stationary car to have an accident on the hardshoulder is 11 minutes. Putting out all your kit puts you on offer. Causes a long queue of drivers slowing down to look. I can give examples of good and bad dealing with HATOs.

A big problem is the police managers thinking they have the motorway under control, they are happier to have us follow group 4 van round london then do any traffic policing

[Vaux]

goskins17 said:

I have seen how HATOs deal with incidents many times, some are very good. There just seems to be a lack of common sense sometimes. Do you need ever sign and cone out of the car to deal with a break down on the hardshoulder.

It might just depend on the experience of the HATO patrol. In the early days we had a "rule" that if you were staying 20 mins or longer with something on the hardshoulder, you had to cone out (about ten cones and two signs, plus lights at night) - oh how the RPU laughed when they drove past!. Nowadays I rarely cone out - because we tend not to sit with things like the early days, and if everyone's out and watching traffic you're going to be about as safe as you can be. And, as you say, the more cones and lights, the more the sad bastards will slow down to look, which sort of goes against why we're there, to reduce congestion.

[Scoop940]

IMO HATO's have been a big benefit to our motorways and do a great job, one thing that does bug me though, some of the M3/27 patrols have lately decided to start parking off the side of the motorway in service access points and emergency vehicle raised vantage points or on bridges deliberately tucked so only the bonnet and a few markings show, causing a brake stamping zone on approach - it doesn't help road safety!

Is this a job instruction or do some of the guys just enjoy it?

[John57]

Scoop940 said:

IMO HATO's have been a big benefit to our motorways and do a great job, one thing that does bug me though, some of the M3/27 patrols have lately decided to start parking off the side of the motorway in service access points and emergency vehicle raised vantage points or on bridges deliberately tucked so only the bonnet and a few markings show, causing a brake stamping zone on approach - it doesn't help road safety!

Is this a job instruction or do some of the guys just enjoy it?

How about it's a safe place for them to be in between junctions ready to respond immediately rather than driving along at 56mph confusing everyone who is colourblind into braking thinking they are a police 4x4 ?

[Vaux]

Scoop940 said:

Is this a job instruction or do some of the guys just enjoy it?

Although it's a national organization, there are regional differences (Seven regions). My region dosen't seem to use the "Police" observation points. I've parked up once in two years, and that was to be safely out of the way before we had to do a rolling road block for roadworks crew to cone out.
If we're not driving we're in a Services or back at our outstation.

Some regions might be told to park up more, but I don't see the point of trying to hide.