On closing motorways UK -vs- US
Discussion
Last Friday morning, 10 August 2007, I had the misfortune to be travelling on the M25 and was severely delayed because of the four vehicle crash that closed the motorway for some 10 hours.
Wednesday afternoon, 1 August 2007, I was travelling on the I20E towards Atlanta, Georgia when an accident occured involving two semi-rigid lorries, a large panel van and a 1.5 ton flatbed truck. This accident too blocked the highway, with material spilled from three of the vehicles involved.
The Highway Patrol attended (two cars, two troopers). An air-ambulance lifted two injured from the site within 30 minutes. A heavy-lifting truck was summoned and dragged the bent vehicles to the roadside. A backhoe arrived and it shovelled/scooped the debris to the side of the road. The two troopers, the driver and mate from the heavy-lifting truck and the driver of the backhoe, assisted by several drivers from stopped vehicles swept the road clear of smaller debris. Various people dispensed sodas from private supplies (al ice-cold) - the temperature was around 99F with RH over 40%. The road was clear and traffic moving in all lanes within 90 minutes.
Notice any difference?
Streaky
Wednesday afternoon, 1 August 2007, I was travelling on the I20E towards Atlanta, Georgia when an accident occured involving two semi-rigid lorries, a large panel van and a 1.5 ton flatbed truck. This accident too blocked the highway, with material spilled from three of the vehicles involved.
The Highway Patrol attended (two cars, two troopers). An air-ambulance lifted two injured from the site within 30 minutes. A heavy-lifting truck was summoned and dragged the bent vehicles to the roadside. A backhoe arrived and it shovelled/scooped the debris to the side of the road. The two troopers, the driver and mate from the heavy-lifting truck and the driver of the backhoe, assisted by several drivers from stopped vehicles swept the road clear of smaller debris. Various people dispensed sodas from private supplies (al ice-cold) - the temperature was around 99F with RH over 40%. The road was clear and traffic moving in all lanes within 90 minutes.
Notice any difference?
Streaky
Ive heard today that the M40 was closed in BOTH directions for 20 MILES,,following the shooting of the biker.
WTF is that all about? ,from the moment the gun was fired until the biker hit the ground couldnt have been more than a few hundred yds. could it?
Must be the world record for the largest/longest ever crime scene,the cops couldnt possibly have done a fingertip search of that whole 20 miles.
WTF is that all about? ,from the moment the gun was fired until the biker hit the ground couldnt have been more than a few hundred yds. could it?
Must be the world record for the largest/longest ever crime scene,the cops couldnt possibly have done a fingertip search of that whole 20 miles.
wildone63 said:
Ive heard today that the M40 was closed in BOTH directions for 20 MILES,,following the shooting of the biker.
WTF is that all about? ,from the moment the gun was fired until the biker hit the ground couldnt have been more than a few hundred yds. could it?
Must be the world record for the largest/longest ever crime scene,the cops couldnt possibly have done a fingertip search of that whole 20 miles.
Where are the relevant junctions, is it that it made it easier to organise diversions? Whole host of considerations. You have to also allow for weapons / clothing etc being discarded after the incident. Other factors that I won't go into as well.WTF is that all about? ,from the moment the gun was fired until the biker hit the ground couldnt have been more than a few hundred yds. could it?
Must be the world record for the largest/longest ever crime scene,the cops couldnt possibly have done a fingertip search of that whole 20 miles.
Or its done just cos they can and they wanted to ruin everyones first day back at work after a lovely weekend.
If someone is seriously injured or killed the Collision Investigation Unit need to attend and examine the scene. It's this that can take time, rather than physically moving debris blocking the road.
I'd rather the investigation was done properly and the road delayed than everything shoved out of the way at the expense of justice.
I'd rather the investigation was done properly and the road delayed than everything shoved out of the way at the expense of justice.
10 Pence Short said:
I'd rather the investigation was done properly and the road delayed than everything shoved out of the way at the expense of justice.
I think that depends on which side of the tape you are. There has to be a balance but doesn't seem to be one at the moment. The M40 was closed in both directions with 10 mile tailbacks hence the 20 miles mentioned above.
Dogwatch said:
10 Pence Short said:
I'd rather the investigation was done properly and the road delayed than everything shoved out of the way at the expense of justice.
I think that depends on which side of the tape you are. There has to be a balance but doesn't seem to be one at the moment. The M40 was closed in both directions with 10 mile tailbacks hence the 20 miles mentioned above.
What did you expect?, a quick sweep up and then open it up again?
Greendubber said:
Dogwatch said:
10 Pence Short said:
I'd rather the investigation was done properly and the road delayed than everything shoved out of the way at the expense of justice.
I think that depends on which side of the tape you are. There has to be a balance but doesn't seem to be one at the moment. The M40 was closed in both directions with 10 mile tailbacks hence the 20 miles mentioned above.
What did you expect?, a quick sweep up and then open it up again?
as for both directions, report by a witness i heard on the radio today said the body ended up in the 3rd lane - would you want to search the central res with cars screaming down the other side at 'normal motorway speed'?
the time roads are shut for accidents seems dumb to me, but i think this closure is valid.
Hooli said:
i dont get why it was more than just between two junctions
Perhaps because closing the motorway at earlier junctions diversion routes were simpler to follow?As has been said, it was a crime scene so evidence needs to be gathered, is very difficult to do that that with vehicles whizzing past at 70mph+.
Dogwatch said:
10 Pence Short said:
I'd rather the investigation was done properly and the road delayed than everything shoved out of the way at the expense of justice.
I think that depends on which side of the tape you are. There has to be a balance but doesn't seem to be one at the moment. The M40 was closed in both directions with 10 mile tailbacks hence the 20 miles mentioned above.
But the weapon might have been discarded or clothing discarded. But then he could have gone any exit after the search spot.. discarded the weapons anywhere in reality.
But they needed to check. They needed to see if any tyre marks left on road close to where it happen. It give some clues perhaps.
They need to see if occupants chuck sweety wrappers or lolly sticks or fag buts out of car window too. You never know.. whoever might already have "form"
und they may have sample to match against somewhere or other. It very likely someone so wicked (old, traditional sense of word. I cannot think of other than "evil" Malicious does not work either ) would be known to police after all. It very, very frightening to think some one can do that. Moving car. Could have missed .. killed another. Caused carnage on fast road.
I really hope they cop this thoroughly evil person. Whoever the deceased was .. regardless of any involvement in any stereotyped activity, which being Hells Angel conjure in some minds - I send virtual condolences for his family.
Edited by WildCat on Tuesday 14th August 07:46
Yep, for example:
If the incident was between J10 and J11 most people think that the m-way will be closed between J10 and 11. But take for instance that J10 is a tiny exit sliproad, through a small village, one road in and out. J11 is a link to a town, but that goes the wrong way from J10.
However at J9 there is a large dual carriageway and full exit slips that links to J12.
What makes more sense?
Ref the US version, one assumes no-one was seriously injured like the M25 example:
[quote]A Highways Agency spokesman said: "There was somebody badly injured so it became a police investigation.
[/quote]
If someones injuries are likely to prove fatal, an investigation is started in the same way as if the fatality occurred at the scene.
Remember - if it was one of your relatives you would want to make damn sure the police investigated every nook and cranny to make sure there was no foul play on anyone's part!
If the incident was between J10 and J11 most people think that the m-way will be closed between J10 and 11. But take for instance that J10 is a tiny exit sliproad, through a small village, one road in and out. J11 is a link to a town, but that goes the wrong way from J10.
However at J9 there is a large dual carriageway and full exit slips that links to J12.
What makes more sense?
Ref the US version, one assumes no-one was seriously injured like the M25 example:
[quote]A Highways Agency spokesman said: "There was somebody badly injured so it became a police investigation.
[/quote]
If someones injuries are likely to prove fatal, an investigation is started in the same way as if the fatality occurred at the scene.
Remember - if it was one of your relatives you would want to make damn sure the police investigated every nook and cranny to make sure there was no foul play on anyone's part!
Edited by Sgt Bilko on Tuesday 14th August 08:14
There's a cancer in Britain whereby ludicrously disproportionate inconvenience seems to be acceptable in cases like this. The fact is if it's a RTA or shooting very very few people are involved. Terrorism is another case in point where vast numbers of people lose their freedom to travel on the back of something directly affecting a vanishingly small minority.
In fact, if you asked the population you'd find (almost) every one to a man would rather life went on.
But these days nobody seems accountable for anything. Whoever said he wanted the M25 closed or the M40 closed will be hiding withing a public office somewhere and not being held to account for the squillions of pounds lost to GB plc for his bad decision.
SM
In fact, if you asked the population you'd find (almost) every one to a man would rather life went on.
But these days nobody seems accountable for anything. Whoever said he wanted the M25 closed or the M40 closed will be hiding withing a public office somewhere and not being held to account for the squillions of pounds lost to GB plc for his bad decision.
SM
If the Police wish to close the M40 because of a murder investigation, then fair enough.
The problem isn't how they deal with a one-off, it is how they deal with the everyday blockages that bring life to a standstill.
It may be a function of where I used to spend my time, but I swear I have seen more BIBs stopping traffic in order to assert priority for one of the royals or some diplomatic empty suit than I have seen BIBs standing at a trouble spot in the road directing traffic in order to encourage its free movement.
In most parts of the US, it is considered part of the job description of the Police to help get traffic moving when practicable. In the UK it's somebody else's problem - the motorist's.
The problem isn't how they deal with a one-off, it is how they deal with the everyday blockages that bring life to a standstill.
It may be a function of where I used to spend my time, but I swear I have seen more BIBs stopping traffic in order to assert priority for one of the royals or some diplomatic empty suit than I have seen BIBs standing at a trouble spot in the road directing traffic in order to encourage its free movement.
In most parts of the US, it is considered part of the job description of the Police to help get traffic moving when practicable. In the UK it's somebody else's problem - the motorist's.
supermono said:
There's a cancer in Britain whereby ludicrously disproportionate inconvenience seems to be acceptable in cases like this. The fact is if it's a RTA or shooting very very few people are involved. Terrorism is another case in point where vast numbers of people lose their freedom to travel on the back of something directly affecting a vanishingly small minority.
In fact, if you asked the population you'd find (almost) every one to a man would rather life went on.
But these days nobody seems accountable for anything. Whoever said he wanted the M25 closed or the M40 closed will be hiding withing a public office somewhere and not being held to account for the squillions of pounds lost to GB plc for his bad decision.
SM
Yeah probably an HSE office. Their perception of the importance of avoiding any traces of risk is killing the country off economically.In fact, if you asked the population you'd find (almost) every one to a man would rather life went on.
But these days nobody seems accountable for anything. Whoever said he wanted the M25 closed or the M40 closed will be hiding withing a public office somewhere and not being held to account for the squillions of pounds lost to GB plc for his bad decision.
SM
Well as there are very few officers on duty I would hate to see 2 or 3 of my 7 patrol officers directing traffic just to make your journey easier. What an absoulute waste of a finite reosource. I have nowhere near enough officers to meet my current demands let alone add this. If your journey is so important then you have sat navs, radio updates etc.
One of the drivers in all rtc's is to get the road safely cleared again. In recent years there has been a vast improvement in the quality of rtc investigations which has resulted in the more serious ones taking longer to clear.
It saddens me in this day that so many people come on here to complain about their own self importance in demanding the dead and dying are swept aside so that they can get to a meeting.
Its the way our society is these days. Selfish.
Interesting though that very often your the same people who refuse to accept that each fatal crash costs the country 1,000,000 pounds.
Each fatal RTC is now treated initialy as a murder enquiry. Simply as until that changed there were a number of cases re-visited that had been 'crashes' that turned out to have been much more.
One of the drivers in all rtc's is to get the road safely cleared again. In recent years there has been a vast improvement in the quality of rtc investigations which has resulted in the more serious ones taking longer to clear.
It saddens me in this day that so many people come on here to complain about their own self importance in demanding the dead and dying are swept aside so that they can get to a meeting.
Its the way our society is these days. Selfish.
Interesting though that very often your the same people who refuse to accept that each fatal crash costs the country 1,000,000 pounds.
Each fatal RTC is now treated initialy as a murder enquiry. Simply as until that changed there were a number of cases re-visited that had been 'crashes' that turned out to have been much more.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
It saddens me in this day that so many people come on here to complain about their own self importance in demanding the dead and dying are swept aside so that they can get to a meeting.
Its the way our society is these days. Selfish.
Don't be sad because that's not what's being said and it's ridiculous to suggest it is. Obviously it's vital to care for the dying for as long as is needed, everyone would agree. Its the way our society is these days. Selfish.
But after the victims have been cared for and taken from the scene, it becomes a right PITA for the thousands upon thousands of people trying to get on with their lives and businesses when the road remains closed for hours sometimes days for no obvious benefit.
And if you're saying that the information gleaned (at astronomical cost to the economy) is to add to road safety knowledge, I say hogwash. UK road safety policy thinking today is a one trick pony catching people failing to display the correct number on their speedo. We've seen the since-records-began year on year improvements stalled.
The super long investigations that you're saying are "improved" have only to do with ticking lots of beuracratic boxes in Whitehall. If the Americans can get their roads clear and flowing quick, then so can we...
Sometimes I think the more the PTB can do to cause congestion the more they like it, after all it leads them nicely onto tracking and road pricing to "solve" the problem.
SM
[quote=Mr_annie_vxr]Well as there are very few officers on duty I would hate to see 2 or 3 of my 7 patrol officers directing traffic just to make your journey easier. What an absoulute waste of a finite reosource. [quote]
.... when they can hide behind bushes with mobile scameras. You are paid for by the public, to serve the public. Doing so may see some respect restored.
.... when they can hide behind bushes with mobile scameras. You are paid for by the public, to serve the public. Doing so may see some respect restored.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
Well as there are very few officers on duty I would hate to see 2 or 3 of my 7 patrol officers directing traffic just to make your journey easier. What an absoulute waste of a finite reosource. I have nowhere near enough officers to meet my current demands let alone add this. If your journey is so important then you have sat navs, radio updates etc.
Sir,There are still plenty of cars without sat-nav or even a radio, you know.
Beyond that, we are told that traffic congestion is such a massive economic problem that the "solution" must be to impose 24/7 vehicle tracking and road-charging. If congestion is that much of a problem, then perhaps instead of an unbelievably expensive, intrusive road-charging scheme, the Government can spend the money on more police, so that you and your colleagues have got the manpower to do the job properly.
IIRC, the cost estimate for running a road-charging scheme was around £15B pa. That would pay for something like 30,000 more police, would it not?
Beyond that, no one expects the police to drop whatever they're doing to rush over to a traffic queue. However, when you've been stuck in a near-stationary queue for an hour or two, finally creep forward to the scene of the blockage where three lanes are trying to squeeze into one to get past an RTA, and there are several BIB literally just standing there and chatting, when instead then could wave their arms a bit and enforce some order upon the converging cars, it can be quite irritating.
That is totally different from:
Mr_annie_vxr said:
...so many people come on here to complain about their own self importance in demanding the dead and dying are swept aside so that they can get to a meeting.
Its the way our society is these days. Selfish.
Indifference to others' suffering is not excusable. I do think that, an awful lot of the time, the reason for a blockage is not a serious or fatal personal injury.Its the way our society is these days. Selfish.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
Interesting though that very often your the same people who refuse to accept that each fatal crash costs the country 1,000,000 pounds.
This number gets thrown around often. Have you seen the assumptions and logic upon which it is based? They're either deliberately misleading, or idiotic.The actual net "cost" to society of an fatal accident is a fraction of that amount.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
Each fatal RTC is now treated initialy as a murder enquiry. Simply as until that changed there were a number of cases re-visited that had been 'crashes' that turned out to have been much more.
Fair enough.Cheers.
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