Section 172

[TedMaul]

Hi

I've had a few NIPs in the past and now have another... mobile camera 38 in 30. Stupid, but thats by the by.

I have 6 points on my licence, 2 x SP30s, one of which is due to expire on 28th August this year i.e. 14 days time

Question is, I have been sent a Section 172, but there is no place on the form where I can accpet £60 and three points, even though the accompanying letter suggests I can? Last NIP I admitted to speeding and that was it, but there is no place to do so this time

Q1) Do i return the Section 172 and then they will send me the offer letter at a later date? Does the process vary from force to force? Last NIP was Humberside, this is s yorks?

Q2) Assuming I do the above in a couple of weeks (I have 28 days to do it) by the time the licence comes back, only 6 points will be valid, can I expect the insurance company to be bothered? I will tell them of course, but 6 points is 6 points right?

Just concerned that if I just send the Section 172 back on itself they will think I am contesting it, which I'm not.

Also, in back of my mind worried that they may give more than 3 points if they think the speed is excessive, namely give me 6 points in which case is my licence at risk?

Funny my 1st ever post was about my last sp30 and here I am ayear later, same old story..... one day I'll learn

Thanks all

Ted

[SS2.]

TedMaul said:

Q1) Do i return the Section 172 and then they will send me the offer letter at a later date? Does the process vary from force to force? Last NIP was Humberside, this is s yorks?

Yes. If you complete the form you will receive either a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty or, potentially and if available in the area of the offence, the offer of a Speed Awareness Workshop - at the speed alleged, you would qualify. Note that you cannot request to attend a Workshop, they are upon invitation only.

A Workshop = cost of £60-£120 (depending on the constabulary) and half a day off work but, most importantly, zero points..

TedMaul said:

Q2) Assuming I do the above in a couple of weeks (I have 28 days to do it) by the time the licence comes back, only 6 points will be valid, can I expect the insurance company to be bothered? I will tell them of course, but 6 points is 6 points right?

Points are valid for totting purposes for 3 years. They are, however, declarable to most (if not all) insurance companies for a period of 5 years.

TedMaul said:

Just concerned that if I just send the Section 172 back on itself they will think I am contesting it, which I'm not.

If you play ball and complete & sign their paperwork and return it within time, they won't think you are contesting it.

TedMaul said:

Also, in back of my mind worried that they may give more than 3 points if they think the speed is excessive, namely give me 6 points in which case is my licence at risk?

Less than 50 in a 30 limit qualifies for a CoFP - 3 points and £60..

[TedMaul]

SS2. said:

TedMaul said:

Q1) Do i return the Section 172 and then they will send me the offer letter at a later date? Does the process vary from force to force? Last NIP was Humberside, this is s yorks?

Yes. If you complete the form you will receive either a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty or, potentially and if available in the area of the offence, the offer of a Speed Awareness Workshop - at the speed alleged, you would qualify. Note that you cannot request to attend a Workshop, they are upon invitation only.

A Workshop = cost of £60-£120 (depending on the constabulary) and half a day off work but, most importantly, zero points..

TedMaul said:

Q2) Assuming I do the above in a couple of weeks (I have 28 days to do it) by the time the licence comes back, only 6 points will be valid, can I expect the insurance company to be bothered? I will tell them of course, but 6 points is 6 points right?

Points are valid for totting purposes for 3 years. They are, however, declarable to most (if not all) insurance companies for a period of 5 years.

TedMaul said:

Just concerned that if I just send the Section 172 back on itself they will think I am contesting it, which I'm not.

If you play ball and complete & sign their paperwork and return it within time, they won't think you are contesting it.

TedMaul said:

Also, in back of my mind worried that they may give more than 3 points if they think the speed is excessive, namely give me 6 points in which case is my licence at risk?

Less than 50 in a 30 limit qualifies for a CoFP - 3 points and £60..

Thanks, good to hear, really hope I get ona course!

[andy_quantum]

SS2. said:

Points are valid for totting purposes for 3 years. They are, however, declarable to most (if not all) insurance companies for a period of 5 years.

You sure? I thought it was on the licence for 3 and 4 for totting up. Insurance seems to be 5

Edit - to the OP, I think you were a bit over for a course to be offered, I'd have thought up to 34 for that

Edited by andy_quantum on Wednesday 15th August 21:45

[SS2.]

andy_quantum said:

SS2. said:

Points are valid for totting purposes for 3 years. They are, however, declarable to most (if not all) insurance companies for a period of 5 years.

You sure? I thought it was on the licence for 3 and 4 for totting up. Insurance seems to be 5

Completely sure.

3 years for totting up. Can be removed after 4 years. Declarable to insurance companies for 5.

andy_quantum said:

Edit - to the OP, I think you were a bit over for a course to be offered, I'd have thought up to 34 for that

National guidelines for qualification for a Speed Awareness Course is upto 10% plus 6mph..

[andy_quantum]

SS2. said:

3 years for totting up. Can be removed after 4 years. Declarable to insurance companies for 5.

Fair enough. I wasnt sure

TedMaul said:

this is s yorks

Which judging by my experience means anything 10% over the speed limit is CoFP 3 points/£60. I just think 38/30 is that little bit too high. Going off yours, 33+6 mph doesnt make sense not to prosecute. Sorry Ted, just my opinion though

Edited by andy_quantum on Wednesday 15th August 21:58

[bigdods]

SS2 said:

National guidelines for qualification for a Speed Awareness Course is upto 10% plus 6mph..

But its just a lottery. My 81 in a 70 got me 3 points and 60 quid, and thats within the above mentioned guidelines. And this is on a clean licence early morning with no other traffic on the dual carriageway.

[SS2.]

bigdods said:

SS2 said:

National guidelines for qualification for a Speed Awareness Course is upto 10% plus 6mph..

But its just a lottery. My 81 in a 70 got me 3 points and 60 quid, and thats within the above mentioned guidelines. And this is on a clean licence early morning with no other traffic on the dual carriageway.

Agreed, it is a complete lottery.

The courses, accepting that the constabulary in question has such a scheme in place, are strictly by invitation only. Its inevitable that the system does not have the capacity to cater for the vast numbers of criminals it seems are being caught these days. As such, many offenders within the 10% plus 2mph-6mph qualifying range are unlikely to be offered courses..

And the circumstances of a particular case are unlikely to form part of the decision to offer a course or otherwise..

Edited by SS2. on Wednesday 15th August 22:17

[aw51 121565]

To the original poster: a speed-awareness course is only usually offered to first time 'offenders' so I wouldn't bank on getting offered a place anyway. Sorry!

[andy_quantum]

I think the criteria is that you havent been on a Speed Awareness Course within the last x (2?) years??

Either way I stand by my original point that 38 in a 30 is that bit too high to get that offer in the first place.

[SS2.]

aw51 121565 said:

To the original poster: a speed-awareness course is only usually offered to first time 'offenders'

Where does that information come from, aw51 ?

[SS2.]

andy_quantum said:

I think the criteria is that you havent been on a Speed Awareness Course within the last x (2?) years??

Its actually 3 years, Andy..

andy_quantum said:

Either way I stand by my original point that 38 in a 30 is that bit too high to get that offer in the first place.

Maybe he will be offered a course, maybe he won't. The thrust of my point was that, at an alleged 38mph, TedMaul is within the qualifying range for a SAC.

[SS2.]

Quinny said:

aw51 121565 said:

To the original poster: a speed-awareness course is only usually offered to first time 'offenders' so I wouldn't bank on getting offered a place anyway. Sorry!

Not sure about this,

Rightly so.

A clean driving licence is not amongst the criteria which must be met before a course is offered..

[TedMaul]

andy_quantum said:

SS2. said:

3 years for totting up. Can be removed after 4 years. Declarable to insurance companies for 5.

Fair enough. I wasnt sure

TedMaul said:

this is s yorks

Which judging by my experience means anything 10% over the speed limit is CoFP 3 points/£60. I just think 38/30 is that little bit too high. Going off yours, 33+6 mph doesnt make sense not to prosecute. Sorry Ted, just my opinion though

Edited by andy_quantum on Wednesday 15th August 21:58

No prob, I deserve it, I wasnt paying attention, I'm just concerned something more than an sp30 is waiting for me as my last black letter day had the opportunity to accept 3 points and a fine straight away without having to declare I was the driver first.

Edited by TedMaul on Thursday 16th August 09:38

[SS2.]

TedMaul said:

I'm just concerned something more than an sp30 is waiting for me as my last black letter day had the opportunity to accept 3 points and a fine straight away without having to declare I was the driver first.

Some SCPs send out combined NIP / s.172 / Conditional Offer forms. South Yorkshire, it would appear, does not.

The fact that they do not send out combined paperwork is not an indication that you are about to be penalised any more heavily than £60 and 3 points..

[eltax91]

SS2. said:

TedMaul said:

I'm just concerned something more than an sp30 is waiting for me as my last black letter day had the opportunity to accept 3 points and a fine straight away without having to declare I was the driver first.

Some SCPs send out combined NIP / s.172 / Conditional Offer forms. South Yorkshire, it would appear, does not.

The fact that they do not send out combined paperwork is not an indication that you are about to be penalised any more heavily than £60 and 3 points..

Give them a call and ask them is you should get a Section 172 ANd a NIP together. When i got caught in Sheffield (South Yorks Police) i got a NIP AND Section 172 in the same envelope. NIP to admit fault, Section 172 to nominate a driver if i was not driving. This was only 2 years ago

[SS2.]

eltax91 said:

Give them a call and ask them is you should get a Section 172 ANd a NIP together. When i got caught in Sheffield (South Yorks Police) i got a NIP AND Section 172 in the same envelope. NIP to admit fault, Section 172 to nominate a driver if i was not driving. This was only 2 years ago

??

A Notice of Intended Prosecution is advisory only - it requires no action of the part of the recipient. No offence is committed if the recipient chooses to ignore it. The purpose of a NIP is not for a driver to 'admit fault'.

A s.172 notice does requires action - namely the supplying, by the recipient, of the identity of the driver at the time of an alleged offence. Note that the completion of a s.172 notice is not (necessarily) an admission of guilt, it merely provides confirmation that Person X was driving the vehicle at the material time.

For convenience, the NIP and s.172 notice are 99.9% of the time combined / annexed into a single document. This is what TedMaul has received.

Subject to certain criteria being met, a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty is normally issued once the police have 1) evidence of a road traffic offence and 2) evidence of the identity of the driver at the time.

Again for adminstrative purposes, a CoFP is sometimes combined with the NIP / s.172 notice. Evidently, TedMaul received a combined NIP / s.172 / CoFP previously and was concerned because he had not received the same this time.

The issue of whether the practice of issuing a CoFP before the identity of the driver is known is interesting and probably one for another day..

[jondude]

If you take the speed awareness course and do not get points, is the offence wiped out, too? No fine, no endorsement.

Or do you still get a SP30, £60 fine...just no points ( meaning you still very much have a record as far as insurance goes ).

[SS2.]

jondude said:

If you take the speed awareness course and do not get points, is the offence wiped out, too? No fine, no endorsement.

Or do you still get a SP30, £60 fine...just no points ( meaning you still very much have a record as far as insurance goes ).

If you accept and attend the course (and do not 'misbehave') then the fee you pay for the Workshop is it. No other fine, no points, nothing on your licence.

AIUI, the fees range currently from £60 to £120 and most courses take about half a day.

The fact that you undertook a course will be recorded on a database held by the DVLA to ensure that you will not be offered another course within the following 3 years.

[jondude]

Thanks SS2.

Got to be worth it, I would say.