Fixed penalty notice

[Greenie]

I have received a fixed penalty notice for a company vehicle.

I cannot remember if it was me or my partner driving at the time-we both drive it a lot. I have written to the officer in charge stating this and asking them to send the photo of the vehicle and hence possibly the driver.

They have written back saying that we should know with "reasonable diligence" and not doing so will result in £1000 fine and disqualification. They also sent a photo which did not show the driver.

So do I just have to pick one of us to take the hit? So one of us will be incrimated even through we have no idea who was actually driving?

[Plotloss]

Not knowing will result you telling that to a Magistrate in court and letting him decide your fate.

Not £1000 and disqualification, the scare mongering s.

[TPS]

The keeper of the vehicle has a legal obligation, under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act, to provide the name of the person who was driving their vehicle at the time of the alleged motoring offence. If the keeper cannot remember who was driving their vehicle, they may be liable to prosecution.
If the keeper writes to the Constabulary concerned and requests a copy of the photographic evidence, "in order to help them to identify the driver", they will probably get one of the following responses:
They will be provided with a copy of the photographic evidence - or;
The Constabulary may write back and state that "the photographic evidence is not intended to identify the driver, it is simply a means of identifying the offending vehicle".
If the Constabulary makes the above statement, or if the evidence that they provide proves to be inconclusive, the keeper may still guilty of an offence unless they discharge their legal obligation under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 by:

Providing the name of the driver, or;
By providing a list of possible drivers.
If the keeper fails to name the driver, then they may be guilty of an offence and could be liable to prosecution - and the punishment may be the same as or worse than for the speeding offence, i.e. points, a fine and costs.

This is what Section 172.-4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says:

"A person shall not be guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was".

The key here is "with reasonable diligence", and it is up to a court to decide whether or not the register keeper has shown reasonable diligence.

[Greenie]

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60 (are the plod counting on that). In which case should I just incriminate one of us (maybe wrongfully)?

[TPS]

Greenie said:

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60

If you fail to name and go to court you could as above get the fine points and costs.So you could end up paying something like this
fined £60 with £364 costs and given three penalty points on licence.

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

[Greenie]

TPS said:

Greenie said:

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60

If you fail to name and go to court you could as above get the fine points and costs.So you could end up paying something like this
fined £60 with £364 costs and given three penalty points on licence.

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

At the weekends we perhaps use the vehicle 10/12 times and we share the driving. So you are suggesting that every time we get in the vehicle we write down who is driving in case we ping a speed camera. Yes that sounds entirely reasonable.

[TPS]

Greenie said:

TPS said:

Greenie said:

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60

If you fail to name and go to court you could as above get the fine points and costs.So you could end up paying something like this
fined £60 with £364 costs and given three penalty points on licence.

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

At the weekends we perhaps use the vehicle 10/12 times and we share the driving. So you are suggesting that every time we get in the vehicle we write down who is driving in case we ping a speed camera. Yes that sounds entirely reasonable.

Well its up to you.You can do it or you can keep going to court and getting the above.It is a free world and therefore your choice.

[Cooperman]

Is the vehicle registered with the company (a limted company, presumably) as the registered keeper? If this is the case, then it's not you personally who has received the NiP, it's the company, a 'body corporate' in law and an entity unto itself.
Get yourself over to 'Pepipoo' who can advise what to do in a situation like this.
Remember, however, that you should you genuinly not know who was driving at the time of the alleged offence and decide that you'll 'take it on the chin', if it subsequently comes to light that you were not the driver and have made a false statement, you can and probably will receive a custodial sentence for 'Perverting the Course of Justice' - a serious matter. So, if you really don't know who was driving, you absolutely must not make a statement which could be false.

[s2art]

TPS said:

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

Where in law does it state that it is your responsibility to keep detailed records of drivers? I think you are talking complete blox.

[Mr E]

s2art said:

[
Where in law does it state that it is your responsibility to keep detailed records of drivers? I think you are talking complete blox.

Agreed. Yes, it may be sensible in light of the current draconian enforcement, but you are by no means obliged to keep records of who was driving your car and when as far as I know.

[Greenie]

TPS said:

Greenie said:

TPS said:

Greenie said:

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60

If you fail to name and go to court you could as above get the fine points and costs.So you could end up paying something like this
fined £60 with £364 costs and given three penalty points on licence.

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

At the weekends we perhaps use the vehicle 10/12 times and we share the driving. So you are suggesting that every time we get in the vehicle we write down who is driving in case we ping a speed camera. Yes that sounds entirely reasonable.

Well its up to you.You can do it or you can keep going to court and getting the above.It is a free world and therefore your choice.

Indeed it is and I will continue to spend time with my family at weekends and not filliing in paperwork. Just as at my time at work will be spend adding value and not on needless paperwork. If that means the system is going to fine me every so often not so be it.

Thanks for your advise anyway.

[TPS]

s2art said:

TPS said:

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

Where in law does it state that it is your responsibility to keep detailed records of drivers? I think you are talking complete blox.

I did not mean in anyway that it is a legal requirement to do this.Hence i did not put "it is a legal requirement to keep a record".What i was saying was as the registered keeper it would be his responsibility to keep the records and in his interest to do this.I agree that i could have worded it better.

Edited by TPS on Thursday 30th August 13:40

[TPS]

Greenie said:

TPS said:

Greenie said:

TPS said:

Greenie said:

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60

If you fail to name and go to court you could as above get the fine points and costs.So you could end up paying something like this
fined £60 with £364 costs and given three penalty points on licence.

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

At the weekends we perhaps use the vehicle 10/12 times and we share the driving. So you are suggesting that every time we get in the vehicle we write down who is driving in case we ping a speed camera. Yes that sounds entirely reasonable.

Well its up to you.You can do it or you can keep going to court and getting the above.It is a free world and therefore your choice.

Indeed it is and I will continue to spend time with my family at weekends and not filliing in paperwork. Just as at my time at work will be spend adding value and not on needless paperwork. If that means the system is going to fine me every so often not so be it.

Thanks for your advise anyway.

All you would need is a book in the car with the following
Date Name Start time Finish time

It would take no more than a minute to put this info down.The time taken to sort out any tickets is surely longer and of more cost than keeping a record.

[s2art]

TPS said:

Greenie said:

TPS said:

Greenie said:

TPS said:

Greenie said:

What shall I do then? Just write back with the names of the 2 possible drivers? Will it definately go in front of a magistrate then?

To be honest I've got better things to do with my time than spend a morning in court for £60

If you fail to name and go to court you could as above get the fine points and costs.So you could end up paying something like this
fined £60 with £364 costs and given three penalty points on licence.

It is in your interest and responsibility as a registered keeper to keep a detailed record of who is driving the vehicle in case any offences etc occur.

At the weekends we perhaps use the vehicle 10/12 times and we share the driving. So you are suggesting that every time we get in the vehicle we write down who is driving in case we ping a speed camera. Yes that sounds entirely reasonable.

Well its up to you.You can do it or you can keep going to court and getting the above.It is a free world and therefore your choice.

Indeed it is and I will continue to spend time with my family at weekends and not filliing in paperwork. Just as at my time at work will be spend adding value and not on needless paperwork. If that means the system is going to fine me every so often not so be it.

Thanks for your advise anyway.

All you would need is a book in the car with the following
Date Name Start time Finish time

It would take no more than a minute to put this info down.The time taken to sort out any tickets is surely longer and of more cost than keeping a record.

And if someone puts in the wrong name? or time? How can you trust the book unless its the keeper himself who fills it in every time?

[TPS]

Ok the driver also has to sign next to the name.Then at the end of the day the owner has a quick look at the book to check its being filled out properly and if not has a word with the other drivers.I have worked for many companies in the past that do this and its never been an issue.

Edit to add.If you put start and end mileage on it as well it would show up any unrecorded use.

Edited by TPS on Thursday 30th August 14:03

[walm]

Can you really not remember who was driving?
10-12 trips over a weekend = 5-6 a day: were they all to the same place and back? (i.e. 5-6 passes of the scamera in question?)
Did you buy things on these trips? You will have receipts with time/date stamps.
It seems worth looking back through the paperwork.

Alternatively, work out which of the two of you will be taking the smaller hit from insurance with the points and let them take the rap.

[Moonhawk]

Options

1. Decide between you which one takes the hit
2. Name both drivers and let court decide
3. Dont name either and commit an offense

It may seem a bit unfair - but one of you did commit the offence. Looking at it from the other perspective - wouldnt the law be an ass if all it took to get off a motoring offence was to plead ignorance - "I dont know who was driving gov!"

I'm not saying that you genuinely cant remember in this instance - but there of plenty of chancers that would use this type of loophole.

You seem to be a bit hostile to the suggestion of keeping a log. Only you can decide whether keeping a log is more hassle than either taking a hit - or going to court over motoring offences. A logbook may not be an ideal or foolproof solution - but it would go a long way to avoiding this type of situation in the future.

[Dwight VanDriver]

What was the Fixed penalty Notice for?.

Everybody is assuming that it is a Conditional Offer accompanied by S172 name and shame request.

Could it have been parking?

>>>>>>>>Where in law does it state that it is your responsibility to keep detailed records of drivers? I think you are talking complete blox.<<<<<<<

Case some 18 months or so ago at Teesside Crown Court on a 172 appeal and the Judge stated that where multiple drivers are is concerned records should be kept.

dvd

[s2art]

Dwight VanDriver said:

>>>>>>>>Where in law does it state that it is your responsibility to keep detailed records of drivers? I think you are talking complete blox.<<<<<<<

Case some 18 months or so ago at Teesside Crown Court on a 172 appeal and the Judge stated that where multiple drivers are is concerned records should be kept.

dvd

Wasnt that for a company with many drivers using a car? Not applicable to, say, a family with several people driving the car.
And what weight does the judges statement have? Do all businesses now have to keep records or not?

Edited by s2art on Thursday 30th August 14:14

[lgw]

Isn't it annoying that there have been quite a few high ranking police constables named and shamed in the press using the excuse that they do not know who was driving there vehicle when caught speeding and use this as there defence to avoid prosecution, one law for the BIB and another for the rest of us............double standards no wonder the general public have no respect for the police

Edited by lgw on Thursday 30th August 14:16