LT2020 certification and errors
Discussion
Hi guys
I was stopped when i was not speeding and told i was doing 50mph .
the officer was behind a post box and i could see the gun waving in the air. I could see a high vis jacket by another car and thought it was a accident i was approaching .
It was a LT 2020 I need links to web site that confirm the Lt 2020 can add speed to your car as the officer suggested this can not happen and he had no nollage of the gun being wrong or hearing of the gun being wrong.
I need some help as i have challenged the certification of the LT2020 use on the day but i need conformation i am correct the certificate Did not have full information require on it .
I need confirmation of content needed on a certificate of use for a LT2020 and where i can confind the law says it show be in a certain way way.i.e should have referance to the equipment used to test the gun, national standard referance and distance etc
Any link would be a real help . all information need to be registered with the court for next week , the Clark ask for link so she could see if there was any legal challenge to the certification.
I also have been granted my cost for a expert witness by the magistrate if i win, I am trying to find a contact number for DR Michael Clark .
Any idea on wher i can find the information would be welcome.
Thanks Guys
I was stopped when i was not speeding and told i was doing 50mph .
the officer was behind a post box and i could see the gun waving in the air. I could see a high vis jacket by another car and thought it was a accident i was approaching .
It was a LT 2020 I need links to web site that confirm the Lt 2020 can add speed to your car as the officer suggested this can not happen and he had no nollage of the gun being wrong or hearing of the gun being wrong.
I need some help as i have challenged the certification of the LT2020 use on the day but i need conformation i am correct the certificate Did not have full information require on it .
I need confirmation of content needed on a certificate of use for a LT2020 and where i can confind the law says it show be in a certain way way.i.e should have referance to the equipment used to test the gun, national standard referance and distance etc
Any link would be a real help . all information need to be registered with the court for next week , the Clark ask for link so she could see if there was any legal challenge to the certification.
I also have been granted my cost for a expert witness by the magistrate if i win, I am trying to find a contact number for DR Michael Clark .
Any idea on wher i can find the information would be welcome.
Thanks Guys
Here's a long running case against the LTI 20:20.
http://www.witlessandswindle.me.uk/
You could also try http://www.pepipoo.com/
Good Luck
http://www.witlessandswindle.me.uk/
You could also try http://www.pepipoo.com/
Good Luck
Mattt said:
What was the speed limit?
Wasn't the outcome of Peter Wards case to just not bother, and take it.
If you can prove that the LTI was out of time for its calibration then it should be a simple enough case. It either is or it isn't.Wasn't the outcome of Peter Wards case to just not bother, and take it.
If it is a valid certificate, and you therefore need to prove that it was used incorrectly (ie. not in accordance with the Code of Practice (here: http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/RPET%2... )) then you'll have a long fight. The courts couldn't care less if an LTI is used correctly or not, and naturally the CPS don't either as their success is counted towards their conviction targets. The speed recorded by the camera that appears on the picture is gospel as far as the courts are concerned. The court will not accept your evidence of speed to prove the LTI was defective or wrongly used -- you first have to prove that before you can then place your evidence of the speed you were doing. That's crazy to me, but it just shows the extent of the bias of the courts.
I know it's hard to accept when you know you're innocent, but unless there's an obvious flaw in the case then you're going to lose eventually. It's up to you whether you want that to cost you £60 or £4000.
Edited by Peter Ward on Sunday 9th September 21:54
Peter Ward said:
Mattt said:
What was the speed limit?
Wasn't the outcome of Peter Wards case to just not bother, and take it.
If you can prove that the LTI was out of time for its calibration then it should be a simple enough case. It either is or it isn't.Wasn't the outcome of Peter Wards case to just not bother, and take it.
If it is a valid certificate, and you therefore need to prove that it was used incorrectly (ie. not in accordance with the Code of Practice (here: http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/RPET%2... )) then you'll have a long fight. The courts couldn't care less if an LTI is used correctly or not, and naturally the CPS don't either as their success is counted towards their conviction targets. The speed recorded by the camera that appears on the picture is gospel as far as the courts are concerned. The court will not accept your evidence of speed to prove the LTI was defective or wrongly used -- you first have to prove that before you can then place your evidence of the speed you were doing. That's crazy to me, but it just shows the extent of the bias of the courts.
I know it's hard to accept when you know you're innocent, but unless there's an obvious flaw in the case then you're going to lose eventually. It's up to you whether you want that to cost you £60 or £4000.
Edited by Peter Ward on Sunday 9th September 21:54
What ever happened in the last year, you seem to have taken over from me!!!
I just hope that you have not become as cynical of the system as myself. If it is any consolation, the 3 year anniversary of my endorsement was a couple of months ago, I have a clean licence again so it now has been put behind me and I must say the 'pain' of the whole affair has subsided somewhat, if that is anything to look forward to!
Hi guys
Been reading from the links for the last few hours.
thanks .
The speed limit was 30mph .
I went to court the first time and advice the magistrate i was not speeding but was prepared to please guilt to get it over with she advised me i could not just plead guilty if i was not .
magistrate left the room for the Clark to speak to me the Clark said i could not plead guilty if i was not speeding , CPS had hump.
I have been looking at what could have gone wrong since then on the web , found out that certificate of conformity on the gun does not conform to national standards but the Clark's on my last hearing asked for me to guide here to where i got the information so she could confirm this . and also on the LTI2020 being faulty.
I need confirmation of national standard to pass to the court, If i am correct Which it would seen i am at the mo , the laser gun has never been certificated correctly .
If any one knows where I CAN DOWNlOAD OR PRINT OFF NATIONAL STANDARD FOR CERTIFICATION OF LTI2020
Been reading from the links for the last few hours.
thanks .
The speed limit was 30mph .
I went to court the first time and advice the magistrate i was not speeding but was prepared to please guilt to get it over with she advised me i could not just plead guilty if i was not .
magistrate left the room for the Clark to speak to me the Clark said i could not plead guilty if i was not speeding , CPS had hump.
I have been looking at what could have gone wrong since then on the web , found out that certificate of conformity on the gun does not conform to national standards but the Clark's on my last hearing asked for me to guide here to where i got the information so she could confirm this . and also on the LTI2020 being faulty.
I need confirmation of national standard to pass to the court, If i am correct Which it would seen i am at the mo , the laser gun has never been certificated correctly .
If any one knows where I CAN DOWNlOAD OR PRINT OFF NATIONAL STANDARD FOR CERTIFICATION OF LTI2020
tomuch said:
If any one knows where I CAN DOWNlOAD OR PRINT OFF NATIONAL STANDARD FOR CERTIFICATION OF LTI2020
Here's something:http://scienceandresearch.homeoffice.gov.uk/hosdb/...
When you go to court just ask for the Officer to produce the claibration certificate and also his training record to proove he has been full trained and is an authorised user.
The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 17:59
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 18:01
cupra-225-r said:
When you go to court just ask for the Officer to produce the claibration certificate and also his training record to proove he has been full trained and is an authorised user.
The Offier should alos carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and the Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Having read your other 3 posts....ummm...Welcome to PH.The Offier should alos carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and the Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 17:59
You're going to be very popular around here.
Should take the heat off Von for a while though.
cupra-225-r said:
When you go to court just ask for the Officer to produce the claibration certificate and also his training record to proove he has been full trained and is an authorised user.
The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Slightly concerning quote there - I've owned one & could duplicate misreads over & over again using the right (but slightly wrong) technique. Especially on highly reflective cars like your might have, so might I suggest you see how fast your parked up trafpol car might be the next time your stuck for something to do. Happy to assist with a demo if I'm in the area The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 17:59
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 18:01
Does your quote include the Ultralyte too?
Just_a_guide said:
Question for PH
How is it that celebrities attack the legal system or use the loop holes and not the equipment, almost if not every time.
I would guess it’s because the kit is more water tight than the legal system that is used to prosecute speeders with.
Just_a_guide's revelation:How is it that celebrities attack the legal system or use the loop holes and not the equipment, almost if not every time.
I would guess it’s because the kit is more water tight than the legal system that is used to prosecute speeders with.
"A pair of tights is more watertight than a sieve."
Amen.
I believe it is the case that the sieve is chosen as the water flows more freely. Oooooh, that and the fact that pretty much every case which seriously challenges the LTI2020 ends up with the CPS throwing in the towel without showing the full video and thus before trial. That doesnt make much of a story, and thus we will never hear about it...
Edited by JustinP1 on Monday 10th September 19:25
cupra-225-r said:
When you go to court just ask for the Officer to produce the claibration certificate and also his training record to proove he has been full trained and is an authorised user.
The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Out of interest, what are the checks and when should they be carried out?The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 17:59
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 18:01
cupra-225-r said:
When you go to court just ask for the Officer to produce the claibration certificate and also his training record to proove he has been full trained and is an authorised user.
The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
What you should have said is that a fully working Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate if properly and professionally__ used, and __within a range that prevents beam divergence becoming a problem.!!!! (don't even start to protest that beam divergence doesn't happen because it's a laser, that's complete bThe Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 17:59
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 18:01
ks)And why should it end up costing more just to exercise your right to defend yourself? I know it does, but it is disgusting.
Just_a_guide said:
Question for PH
How is it that celebrities attack the legal system or use the loop holes and not the equipment, almost if not every time.
I would guess it’s because the kit is more water tight than the legal system that is used to prosecute speeders with.
Loopholes are open to interpretation, are infrequent and affects fairly small numbers; these failures can slip beneath the radar.How is it that celebrities attack the legal system or use the loop holes and not the equipment, almost if not every time.
I would guess it’s because the kit is more water tight than the legal system that is used to prosecute speeders with.
By the nature of the system, dodgy equipment cannot be questioned; once it has approval that's it - it becomes watertight, even if it isn't! Perhaps more significantly: proof of failure will have such a big impact it's scary! There's too much to lose.
Hi guys .
Thanks for all you in put.
cupra -225-r
Thanks for your view .
As it was on the day i was stopped. I was not speeding .I was on my way to work driving the same road as i do every day from the estate where i live. There was mid heavy traffic going the other way and few cars going my way.
The officer that stopped me was behind a post box. The gun was waving about in the air over the post box that was near a lamp post . Has written little true note in his hand book! and no mention of the post box he was hiding behind.
Why ?
He has advised i made no comment !Then stated ,I ask to be let off! I did not ! As i was representing a company at the time and the officer had the right strop , i was very polite .
I move the van i was in to another road as requested and even went into the Mobil police office that was on the area at the time . Answer the grilling on who i was and what i was doing in the area . Where my house was and why i lived in my wife house.
I phone the office as i was driving to work on my hand free and asked for a calibration certificate , Which he reply you will have to go to court to get one of them see you there and hung up the phone something to that effect.
I called back and left a message as he had not let me tell him that he had charged me with with driving the day earlier.
He rang me back the next day and i advised him that he had been giving out ticket with the wrong date on them. He said something about he found out when he got back to the yard ,This it turned out was when he wrote up his minimal notes in the true note book .
My question why did he not wright them at the time he let me go?
To stop any mistake!
Is it not the law that a officer has to wright a reply or note in his not book any response or reply as he question someone on the street after a stop.
High court :Traffic police must record response after nip: yorke and mandesley case 31july2003 (
There was so much that is just wrong , I am finding out AS THE CASE OPENS UP .
THE OFFICER WAS TRAINED OVER 10 YEARS BEFORE AND THERE IS NO SIGN OF A UPDATE TRAINING (REFERSHER) with SOME OF MY QUOLIFCATIONS THAT EFFECT THE PUBLICE I NEED TO RESIT THEM EVERY FIVE YEARS . And most other qualification i hold are going the same way but i do regular up date courses to try and stay up to date and on the ball So to speak.
The Calibration or certificate of conformity .
Does not conform to national standard on several points and there is a page missing that the officer tried to find at court but he was told they do not hold or issue the needed sheet. something to that effect he was on the phone i was listening .If i am correct the gun in question had been used for nearly a year with wrong certificate on it OR INCOPLETE CIRTIFCATION as are most guns WELL FOR NOW possible.
MY FATHER IS A POLICE OFFIER SO THIS IS NOT A DIG AT THE POLICE .
I thought i was having a bad day when i was stopped but i think the officer was having a poorer day on reflection.
After the case as i left court i was talking to the 2 traffic cops.
They are nice guys and are looking forward to see the out come of the case, As they have never has a case with two expert witnesses.
I am no lawyer so i am looking for correct information and confirmation the information is correct.
Hope the case is clear now Justin ( possible clear as mud i would suggest)
Does anyone have a link to a piston head page that shows traffic guys using the lti2020 and other gun on hampstead some years ago i came across it once but can not find it to link to Justin. These officer showed the problem with the lti2020 gun.To a piston head member on a night in the car.
Thanks again lads for input . Justin any input would be welcome .
THANKS SY
Thanks for all you in put.
cupra -225-r
Thanks for your view .
As it was on the day i was stopped. I was not speeding .I was on my way to work driving the same road as i do every day from the estate where i live. There was mid heavy traffic going the other way and few cars going my way.
The officer that stopped me was behind a post box. The gun was waving about in the air over the post box that was near a lamp post . Has written little true note in his hand book! and no mention of the post box he was hiding behind.
Why ?
He has advised i made no comment !Then stated ,I ask to be let off! I did not ! As i was representing a company at the time and the officer had the right strop , i was very polite .
I move the van i was in to another road as requested and even went into the Mobil police office that was on the area at the time . Answer the grilling on who i was and what i was doing in the area . Where my house was and why i lived in my wife house.
I phone the office as i was driving to work on my hand free and asked for a calibration certificate , Which he reply you will have to go to court to get one of them see you there and hung up the phone something to that effect.
I called back and left a message as he had not let me tell him that he had charged me with with driving the day earlier.
He rang me back the next day and i advised him that he had been giving out ticket with the wrong date on them. He said something about he found out when he got back to the yard ,This it turned out was when he wrote up his minimal notes in the true note book .
My question why did he not wright them at the time he let me go?
To stop any mistake!
Is it not the law that a officer has to wright a reply or note in his not book any response or reply as he question someone on the street after a stop.
High court :Traffic police must record response after nip: yorke and mandesley case 31july2003 (
There was so much that is just wrong , I am finding out AS THE CASE OPENS UP .
THE OFFICER WAS TRAINED OVER 10 YEARS BEFORE AND THERE IS NO SIGN OF A UPDATE TRAINING (REFERSHER) with SOME OF MY QUOLIFCATIONS THAT EFFECT THE PUBLICE I NEED TO RESIT THEM EVERY FIVE YEARS . And most other qualification i hold are going the same way but i do regular up date courses to try and stay up to date and on the ball So to speak.
The Calibration or certificate of conformity .
Does not conform to national standard on several points and there is a page missing that the officer tried to find at court but he was told they do not hold or issue the needed sheet. something to that effect he was on the phone i was listening .If i am correct the gun in question had been used for nearly a year with wrong certificate on it OR INCOPLETE CIRTIFCATION as are most guns WELL FOR NOW possible.
MY FATHER IS A POLICE OFFIER SO THIS IS NOT A DIG AT THE POLICE .
I thought i was having a bad day when i was stopped but i think the officer was having a poorer day on reflection.
After the case as i left court i was talking to the 2 traffic cops.
They are nice guys and are looking forward to see the out come of the case, As they have never has a case with two expert witnesses.
I am no lawyer so i am looking for correct information and confirmation the information is correct.
Hope the case is clear now Justin ( possible clear as mud i would suggest)
Does anyone have a link to a piston head page that shows traffic guys using the lti2020 and other gun on hampstead some years ago i came across it once but can not find it to link to Justin. These officer showed the problem with the lti2020 gun.To a piston head member on a night in the car.
Thanks again lads for input . Justin any input would be welcome .
THANKS SY
CUPRA-225-R
LOOK AT THIS OLD LINK SEE THE LTI2020 OUT OF 20 TRYS ONLY 3 HITS.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
FEED BACK WOULD BE GOOD.
SY
LOOK AT THIS OLD LINK SEE THE LTI2020 OUT OF 20 TRYS ONLY 3 HITS.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
FEED BACK WOULD BE GOOD.
SY
cupra-225-r said:
When you go to court just ask for the Officer to produce the claibration certificate and also his training record to proove he has been full trained and is an authorised user.
The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
If the LTI is 100% accurate why did some US states ban it's use? Also... and no disrespect, but how would a police officer actually know for certain that they are always accurate. If I was going to bet my house on an opinion I would put my money on a laser expert / scientist. The Officer should also carry out checks before use to check the laser is working correctly, ask if he did these.
I'm a Traffic (sorry, Roads Policing) Officer and a fully working laser Lti 20-20 is 100% accurate! Don't beleive all the BS!
The only way you'll get off is to discredit the 3 points above.
Good luck.......and prepare for the Magistartes to give you a nice few hundered quid fine and 4 to 6 points!
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 17:59
Edited by cupra-225-r on Monday 10th September 18:01
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