Postal Strike - Radio 4 interview with Nick Freeman
Discussion
Did anyone catch Radio 4 this morning? Interview with Nick Freeman that suggested that as the postal strike is delaying the delivery of camera documentation by more than 14 days you are safe from prosecution.
The interview can be found on the BBC's website. It's around 2:41 into the Todady program.
The interview can be found on the BBC's website. It's around 2:41 into the Todady program.
Edited by Fittster on Wednesday 10th October 12:21
tank slapper said:
Do they not only have to show that it was posted in time?
I'd have thought they have to post it with the knowledge it was to arrive within the set period as per RM's standard delivery timescales - with the strikes it would be reasonable to assume that wasn't going to happen, so you could argue that they shouldn't have tried to send them using this system.Maybe?
tank slapper said:
Do they not only have to show that it was posted in time?
Normally, yes, but only because it is usually considered reasonable to assume that the post is delivered promptly. That assumpion ceases to be reasonable during a a strike that is significantly disrupting the postal service.I’ve tried to transcribe his comments but please listen to Nick Freeman on the BBC website.
Mr Freeman: “I can certainly see advantage from the motorists point of view. When a motorist goes through a camera the documentation must be sent in such time that it must be received in 14 days. And of course the problem now, particularly with rolling strikes these documents are typically sent by first class post. The probability is that unless the system is changed there going to arrive outside the 14 day period and that really means the motorist can admit that he or she was driving, committing and offence of speeding for example but those proceeding will be defective because the notice been sent and received within the 14 day period.”
Interviewer: “So it’s completely invalid?”
Mr Freeman: “It is. The proceeding will be void. The motorist will of course, there is a presumption that the documentation has been sent and received within 14 days and the burden is on the motorist to show on the balance of probabilities that it hasn’t been received. So he or she would have to give evidence, on oath possibly to that effect, write to the central ticket office “saying look I haven’t received this documentation in time” and that should completely void the procedure. So it would unfortunately for the authorities be of a massive advantage for the motorist. These things are hard to predict because it’s a rolling strike.”
Interviewer: “Is it going to amount to an amnesty?”
Freeman: “The motorist would be well advised to keep their envelopes with the stamps on and the date mark on so that they will be able to prove possible when they were sent and have some documentation to show when they were received. “
Mr Freeman: “I can certainly see advantage from the motorists point of view. When a motorist goes through a camera the documentation must be sent in such time that it must be received in 14 days. And of course the problem now, particularly with rolling strikes these documents are typically sent by first class post. The probability is that unless the system is changed there going to arrive outside the 14 day period and that really means the motorist can admit that he or she was driving, committing and offence of speeding for example but those proceeding will be defective because the notice been sent and received within the 14 day period.”
Interviewer: “So it’s completely invalid?”
Mr Freeman: “It is. The proceeding will be void. The motorist will of course, there is a presumption that the documentation has been sent and received within 14 days and the burden is on the motorist to show on the balance of probabilities that it hasn’t been received. So he or she would have to give evidence, on oath possibly to that effect, write to the central ticket office “saying look I haven’t received this documentation in time” and that should completely void the procedure. So it would unfortunately for the authorities be of a massive advantage for the motorist. These things are hard to predict because it’s a rolling strike.”
Interviewer: “Is it going to amount to an amnesty?”
Freeman: “The motorist would be well advised to keep their envelopes with the stamps on and the date mark on so that they will be able to prove possible when they were sent and have some documentation to show when they were received. “
The presumption is on service within 2 days posted first class.
This will, I guess, rebutt that presumption, therefore if the police want to prosecute they will have to find another way to get the letters delivered - by courier maybe? Although the costs of carriage will then make it more expensive to collect the tax, so it will be interesting to see how many prosecutions didn't bother to be sent as they wouldn't get their tax, all in the name of safety..........
This will, I guess, rebutt that presumption, therefore if the police want to prosecute they will have to find another way to get the letters delivered - by courier maybe? Although the costs of carriage will then make it more expensive to collect the tax, so it will be interesting to see how many prosecutions didn't bother to be sent as they wouldn't get their tax, all in the name of safety..........
When does the 14 day period start.
On 29 Sep I went through a Truvelo on a dual-carraigeway on Detling Hill northbound in Kent, that was marked (several times) as NSL and then I suddenly saw a 50 mph limit sign and then immediately afterwards the camera.
Haven't a clue what I was doing when I passed the camera - probably mid 50's.
Nothing as yet.
On 29 Sep I went through a Truvelo on a dual-carraigeway on Detling Hill northbound in Kent, that was marked (several times) as NSL and then I suddenly saw a 50 mph limit sign and then immediately afterwards the camera.
Haven't a clue what I was doing when I passed the camera - probably mid 50's.
Nothing as yet.
Springbok - I go through there (Detling Hill Northbound) every day - I don't think the camnera is active - it's not pointing toward the lines painted on the road!
Also, occasionally there's a camera van a bit further up the hill in a layby on a bend (surely they wouldn't bother to wait there if the camera was active?).
CH
Also, occasionally there's a camera van a bit further up the hill in a layby on a bend (surely they wouldn't bother to wait there if the camera was active?).
CH
Dr Bob said:
Also, occasionally there's a camera van a bit further up the hill in a layby on a bend (surely they wouldn't bother to wait there if the camera was active?).
Wanna bet ??The most actively mobile scammed areas around here are within 100 yards of fixed cameras - they pick off they drivers before they have slowed for the static cams..
I'd slowed by the time I got under the pedestrian crossing, but I wasn't going that fast anyway. It's just so annoying to see several signs indicating NSL and then within a very short distance of the last one the limit changes dramatically and hey presto a camera - almost as if they are trying to catch you out.
Thanks for your comments.
Thanks for your comments.
Mr freeman is wrong,
It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it. There a was an amendment in the 1991 RTA, to allow process sections to sent the NIP, and have it deemed as served as long as they have proof it was posted, and a declaration is added to the NIP to say so.
Any delay in the post, will not matter as the NIP was put in the first class post system before the 14 days and it good time to arrive.
It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it. There a was an amendment in the 1991 RTA, to allow process sections to sent the NIP, and have it deemed as served as long as they have proof it was posted, and a declaration is added to the NIP to say so.
Any delay in the post, will not matter as the NIP was put in the first class post system before the 14 days and it good time to arrive.
goskins17 said:
Mr freeman is wrong,
It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it. There a was an amendment in the 1991 RTA, to allow process sections to sent the NIP, and have it deemed as served as long as they have proof it was posted, and a declaration is added to the NIP to say so.
Any delay in the post, will not matter as the NIP was put in the first class post system before the 14 days and it good time to arrive.
You need to make sure and tell Nick Freeman, the idiot motoring lawyer, that he's got it all wrong... I bet he'll feel so silly when you tell him.It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it. There a was an amendment in the 1991 RTA, to allow process sections to sent the NIP, and have it deemed as served as long as they have proof it was posted, and a declaration is added to the NIP to say so.
Any delay in the post, will not matter as the NIP was put in the first class post system before the 14 days and it good time to arrive.
SM
goskins17 said:
Mr freeman is wrong,
It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it. There a was an amendment in the 1991 RTA, to allow process sections to sent the NIP, and have it deemed as served as long as they have proof it was posted, and a declaration is added to the NIP to say so.
Any delay in the post, will not matter as the NIP was put in the first class post system before the 14 days and it good time to arrive.
That only applies to Registered and Recorded Delivery.It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it. There a was an amendment in the 1991 RTA, to allow process sections to sent the NIP, and have it deemed as served as long as they have proof it was posted, and a declaration is added to the NIP to say so.
Any delay in the post, will not matter as the NIP was put in the first class post system before the 14 days and it good time to arrive.
Amendment added First Class Post to that what can be used to serve but this does not attract the ' if for any other reason not received by him' that applies only to Reg/Rec Del Post that can be used in these cases to prove service.
Do a search on NOIp there were educating posts from D.M. and others explaining all.
dvd
goskins17 said:
It only has to posted in 14 days and the CJU sending keeps a record, the act of them posting it is deemed as service by the road traffic act even if you don't receive it.
That only applies to a recorded delivery service.The notice has to be posted in good time such that it would be delivered within 14 days, not including the day of the alleged offence.
For first class post, it is assumed to be served at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post (unless the contrary is proven). This creates a presumption of service which, unlike recorded delivery, can be rebutted by sworn testimony (ie proving the contrary).
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