Caught speeding by what?
Discussion
Just been in a car with a friend, and as we passed a police car, I mentioned to him to watch his speed and he maintained a steady 30/31 on the speedo. Anyway, the police car had followed and eventually pulled us over and after arguing that he was not speeding, my mate was issued with a fixed penalty for 'exceeding 30mph speed limit'. He says the officer mentioned a 'follow check' which I assume means he used no device other than his speedo? If he'd used a device to measure the speed this would mean an exact speed would be written on the NIP would it not? Is there any way to tell what method was used from the NIP?
Thanks!
Thanks!
I sincerely hope this wasn't a bogus ticket issued 'just because they can' to meet targets.
If so then it is absolutely outrageous.
I believe you have to be followed for a half a mile for a follow check or at least that was the case when I was younger.
Did they have anything on video.Did they mention vascar to you?
Or did they just use their calibrated speedometer.
Did you notice the car maintaining a constant distance behind you.
If they didn't keep a constant distance then they would have got a false reading.
If so then it is absolutely outrageous.
I believe you have to be followed for a half a mile for a follow check or at least that was the case when I was younger.
Did they have anything on video.Did they mention vascar to you?
Or did they just use their calibrated speedometer.
Did you notice the car maintaining a constant distance behind you.
If they didn't keep a constant distance then they would have got a false reading.
Windymiller said:
Just been in a car with a friend, and as we passed a police car, I mentioned to him to watch his speed and he maintained a steady 30/31 on the speedo. Anyway, the police car had followed and eventually pulled us over and after arguing that he was not speeding, my mate was issued with a fixed penalty for 'exceeding 30mph speed limit'. He says the officer mentioned a 'follow check' which I assume means he used no device other than his speedo? If he'd used a device to measure the speed this would mean an exact speed would be written on the NIP would it not? Is there any way to tell what method was used from the NIP?
Thanks!
If you were really only doing an indicated 30-31 then this has to be worth a challenge. First thing to do though might be to calibrate the speedo in some way, measured distance and a stopwatch to calculate the speed sort of thing. But usually an indicated 30-31 should only be a true 28-29 given that speedos usually overread, (by up to 10%). There is no way that you should get a ticket in these circumstances. Thanks!
I was keeping my eye on the car as it followed and it shot up behind us, sat there for a bit, then put the lights on as we approached a lay by. Mate says the officer said something about two tenths of a mile to him.
Is going to court the only way to check the evidence or what was used to record the speed? It's so bad if it is!
Is going to court the only way to check the evidence or what was used to record the speed? It's so bad if it is!
Windymiller said:
I was keeping my eye on the car as it followed and it shot up behind us, sat there for a bit, then put the lights on as we approached a lay by. Mate says the officer said something about two tenths of a mile to him.
Is going to court the only way to check the evidence or what was used to record the speed? It's so bad if it is!
Hmm that sounds like very irregular procedure.Is going to court the only way to check the evidence or what was used to record the speed? It's so bad if it is!
With all due respect are you two young lads in a car.
They might have thought they had a couple of 'suckers' they could nab for a quick boost to their targets.
Two tengths of a mile doesn't seem long enough for a follow check.
How did the officer even know it was two tengths?
and what actual speed reading were you given.
I believe they have to give you at least one or two readings ie you were travelling between x and y miles per hour.
Hmm it seems the distance was legal..
minimum distance is 1/8 of a mile which is obviously less than 2/10ths or 1/5th of a mile.
however . .
The police cars speedo has to be callibrated EVERY WEEK and upon fitment of REPLACEMENT TYRES.
I would write and request what evidence the officers have
If there is video
What was the recorded speed minimum and maximum
When the officers speedometer was last calibrated
When the car last had new tyres fitted.
minimum distance is 1/8 of a mile which is obviously less than 2/10ths or 1/5th of a mile.
however . .
The police cars speedo has to be callibrated EVERY WEEK and upon fitment of REPLACEMENT TYRES.
I would write and request what evidence the officers have
If there is video
What was the recorded speed minimum and maximum
When the officers speedometer was last calibrated
When the car last had new tyres fitted.
mark69sheer said:
Hmm it seems the distance was legal..
minimum distance is 1/8 of a mile which is obviously less than 2/10ths or 1/5th of a mile.
however . .
The police cars speedo has to be callibrated EVERY WEEK and upon fitment of REPLACEMENT TYRES.
I would write and request what evidence the officers have
If there is video
What was the recorded speed minimum and maximum
When the officers speedometer was last calibrated
When the car last had new tyres fitted.
There is no requirement of video evidence in order to summons for speeding.minimum distance is 1/8 of a mile which is obviously less than 2/10ths or 1/5th of a mile.
however . .
The police cars speedo has to be callibrated EVERY WEEK and upon fitment of REPLACEMENT TYRES.
I would write and request what evidence the officers have
If there is video
What was the recorded speed minimum and maximum
When the officers speedometer was last calibrated
When the car last had new tyres fitted.
There is no requirement in law for the speedo to be calibrated where the margin is not small. (Nicholas v Penny)
You can be convicted on the evidence of a single officer & speedo. (Weatherhogg v John)
No speed was given. NIP says exceeding 30mph limit. Just checked my ticket from a few months back (they used that box where they time you between 2 points) and it says ' excess on motorway 95.30 mph @ 1.01 miles'. He just said 'over 30 mph' (I was there for that bit) and yes, it was a traffic Volvo, but my mate reckons there was no camera/video.
We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
Windymiller said:
No speed was given. NIP says exceeding 30mph limit. Just checked my ticket from a few months back (they used that box where they time you between 2 points) and it says ' excess on motorway 95.30 mph @ 1.01 miles'. He just said 'over 30 mph' (I was there for that bit) and yes, it was a traffic Volvo, but my mate reckons there was no camera/video.
We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
The offence is exceeding the limit. The actual speed isn't required on the FPN.We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
vonhosen said:
mark69sheer said:
Hmm it seems the distance was legal..
minimum distance is 1/8 of a mile which is obviously less than 2/10ths or 1/5th of a mile.
however . .
The police cars speedo has to be callibrated EVERY WEEK and upon fitment of REPLACEMENT TYRES.
I would write and request what evidence the officers have
If there is video
What was the recorded speed minimum and maximum
When the officers speedometer was last calibrated
When the car last had new tyres fitted.
1/There is no requirement of video evidence in order to summons for speeding.minimum distance is 1/8 of a mile which is obviously less than 2/10ths or 1/5th of a mile.
however . .
The police cars speedo has to be callibrated EVERY WEEK and upon fitment of REPLACEMENT TYRES.
I would write and request what evidence the officers have
If there is video
What was the recorded speed minimum and maximum
When the officers speedometer was last calibrated
When the car last had new tyres fitted.
2/There is no requirement in law for the speedo to be calibrated where the margin is not small. (Nicholas v Penny)
3/You can be convicted on the evidence of a single officer & speedo. (Weatherhogg v John)
2/ How big was this margin? Assuming that the OP was correct in saying that they were actively watching their speedo when followed then there can be no more than a couple of mph difference. However the officers haven't even said what speed he was alledgedly doing. This would then not be covered by the Nicholas v Penny case and THE CALIBRATION MUST BE PROVEN.
There should have been a minimum , maximum speed recorded and the device used to obtain the prosecution.
I agree if someone is doing 90mph on a motorway and are accused of 93mph then there is no need to check wether the speedo is calibrated or not but in this case if the OP's first post is true then calibration is definately legally essential
3/ I didn't ever mention anything about the number of officers present.
Edited by mark69sheer on Saturday 20th October 21:32
Windymiller said:
No speed was given. NIP says exceeding 30mph limit. Just checked my ticket from a few months back (they used that box where they time you between 2 points) and it says ' excess on motorway 95.30 mph @ 1.01 miles'. He just said 'over 30 mph' (I was there for that bit) and yes, it was a traffic Volvo, but my mate reckons there was no camera/video.
We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
That sounds like a speed from Police Pilot / Vascar ... not a follow speed using a calibrated speedo.We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
If your friend is unhappy then ring / leave a message for the officer and ask him what the exact speed was, etc and/or go not guilty.
vonhosen said:
A calibrated speedo is NOT a requirement for a successful prosecution.
There is no requirement to put the speed measured on the FPN.
NOT SO!There is no requirement to put the speed measured on the FPN.
From kent police regulations:-
8. In-Car Speed Detection Devices
8.1.Only vehicles fitted with calibrated speedometers will be used to detect speed offences. Speeding offences will not be prosecuted where an uncalibrated speedometer is relied upon, unless the offence is accompanied by circumstances of exceptional danger to the public.
8.2.Calibrated speedometers must be tested weekly, over a measured distance, and before the completion of a tour of duty during which any speeding offence is detected. Speedometers can be checked using either of the following methods:
a) The time taken to travel along a certified measured distance using a certified stop watch.
b) Against another type approved speed measuring device, NOT fitted to the vehicle e.g. Laser or Radar equipment.
Test results will be recorded on the vehicles speedometer register (Form 1411) and noted in the officers’ pocket book. Speedometer tests must be witnessed by two officers. Speedometer registers will be kept on area and must be available for production at court if required.
8.3.Stopwatches used to check speedometers must be certified for accuracy every 2 years. Certificates of accuracy will be kept on area and must be available for inspection or production at court if necessary.
8.4.Vascar and Police Pilot are in-car, speed detection devices fitted to some vehicles. Each unit must be calibrated weekly and
After any wheel change
After any repair or replacement of the unit or its component parts ( including the vehicles speedometer).
All calibration checks will be recorded on the vehicles calibration test register, which must be available for production at court if required.
8.5.If a speeding offence is detected using a Vascar/Police Pilot unit, an accuracy check will be completed before the end of the officers’ tour of duty and recorded in their pocket book.
8.6.If a vehicle fitted with Vascar/Police Pilot is also equipped with a video camera, calibration and accuracy checks will be recorded on tape.
8.7.Officers must be in a position to be able to give evidence in court as to how and when calibration and accuracy checks were carried out.
Don't you just love google..
see more ...
[url]
http://www.kent.police.uk/About%20Kent%20Police/Po...
[/url]
You may also wish to know wether the officer in question has been trained , this may be why he didn't specify a speed if he hasn't had training he may not be authorised to do so.
Every time I have been stopped for speeding except by camera the officer has allways told me the alledged speed he recorded.
Edited by mark69sheer on Saturday 20th October 21:45
Windymiller said:
We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
A touch faster?My advice was given in good faith here as I believed from your original post that you were on or around being a 'touch over'the limit as you originally past the officers.
I cannot condone speeding in a 30mph zone and hope sincerely that you weren't any significantly over the limit prior to slowing when the officers followed.
Your mention of your previous ticket for 93.5 doesn't fill me with warm feelings either since that would tend to suggest your speedo would have been showing over 100mph.
However I also fully disagree with abuses of power and hope the correct result benefits whichever party deserves it.
Take this one to court. There is a chance your mate may only have to do a speed awareness course. It seems to me that the plod was unhappy at you passing him.
1. Do you remember the exact place you were followed from and when you were stopped, if so use google earth distance measuring facility to ensure that this is correct.
2. It is obvious when the police are follwing you, such that if you corroborate your mate's evidence that he was not going over 30 then that may help his case.
3. What are the chances of upon passing a marked police car your mate upon seeing which drives over the limit once it follows him?
its a bit of a one wayer is it not? Tell him to challenge it.
1. Do you remember the exact place you were followed from and when you were stopped, if so use google earth distance measuring facility to ensure that this is correct.
2. It is obvious when the police are follwing you, such that if you corroborate your mate's evidence that he was not going over 30 then that may help his case.
3. What are the chances of upon passing a marked police car your mate upon seeing which drives over the limit once it follows him?
its a bit of a one wayer is it not? Tell him to challenge it.
mark69sheer said:
Windymiller said:
We're both 30 so not really kids, and my mate's car is a Boxster with a digital readout on the speedo. We may have been going a touch faster as we passed him, but we were bang on 30/31 as he pulled out.
A touch faster?My advice was given in good faith here as I believed from your original post that you were on or around being a 'touch over'the limit as you originally past the officers.
I cannot condone speeding in a 30mph zone and hope sincerely that you weren't any significantly over the limit prior to slowing when the officers followed.
Your mention of your previous ticket for 93.5 doesn't fill me with warm feelings either since that would tend to suggest your speedo would have been showing over 100mph.
However I also fully disagree with abuses of power and hope the correct result benefits whichever party deserves it.
As for my speeding, that was a total fair cop. Just one of those moments where the motorway becomes clear ahead and I put my foot down. There was a unmarked car way behind me, he caught me, I took the points. Wasn't looking at the speedo as I was concentrating on the road ahead. Oh, and that's not my excuse - I know I was flying.
mark69sheer said:
vonhosen said:
A calibrated speedo is NOT a requirement for a successful prosecution.
There is no requirement to put the speed measured on the FPN.
NOT SO!There is no requirement to put the speed measured on the FPN.
From kent police regulations:-
8. In-Car Speed Detection Devices
8.1.Only vehicles fitted with calibrated speedometers will be used to detect speed offences. Speeding offences will not be prosecuted where an uncalibrated speedometer is relied upon, unless the offence is accompanied by circumstances of exceptional danger to the public.
8.2.Calibrated speedometers must be tested weekly, over a measured distance, and before the completion of a tour of duty during which any speeding offence is detected. Speedometers can be checked using either of the following methods:
a) The time taken to travel along a certified measured distance using a certified stop watch.
b) Against another type approved speed measuring device, NOT fitted to the vehicle e.g. Laser or Radar equipment.
Test results will be recorded on the vehicles speedometer register (Form 1411) and noted in the officers’ pocket book. Speedometer tests must be witnessed by two officers. Speedometer registers will be kept on area and must be available for production at court if required.
8.3.Stopwatches used to check speedometers must be certified for accuracy every 2 years. Certificates of accuracy will be kept on area and must be available for inspection or production at court if necessary.
8.4.Vascar and Police Pilot are in-car, speed detection devices fitted to some vehicles. Each unit must be calibrated weekly and
After any wheel change
After any repair or replacement of the unit or its component parts ( including the vehicles speedometer).
All calibration checks will be recorded on the vehicles calibration test register, which must be available for production at court if required.
8.5.If a speeding offence is detected using a Vascar/Police Pilot unit, an accuracy check will be completed before the end of the officers’ tour of duty and recorded in their pocket book.
8.6.If a vehicle fitted with Vascar/Police Pilot is also equipped with a video camera, calibration and accuracy checks will be recorded on tape.
8.7.Officers must be in a position to be able to give evidence in court as to how and when calibration and accuracy checks were carried out.
Don't you just love google..
see more ...
[url]
http://www.kent.police.uk/About%20Kent%20Police/Po...
[/url]
You may also wish to know wether the officer in question has been trained , this may be why he didn't specify a speed if he hasn't had training he may not be authorised to do so.
Every time I have been stopped for speeding except by camera the officer has allways told me the alledged speed he recorded.
Edited by mark69sheer on Saturday 20th October 21:45
It's not the requirement of the court.
The stated case stands, a calibrated speedo is not a requirement to secure a conviction, which is exactly what I said, so you are wrong.
If Kent choose not to prosecute without a calibrated speedo that's their choice, but they don't have to.
vonhosen said:
mark69sheer said:
vonhosen said:
A calibrated speedo is NOT a requirement for a successful prosecution.
There is no requirement to put the speed measured on the FPN.
NOT SO!There is no requirement to put the speed measured on the FPN.
From kent police regulations:-
8. In-Car Speed Detection Devices
8.1.Only vehicles fitted with calibrated speedometers will be used to detect speed offences. Speeding offences will not be prosecuted where an uncalibrated speedometer is relied upon, unless the offence is accompanied by circumstances of exceptional danger to the public.
8.2.Calibrated speedometers must be tested weekly, over a measured distance, and before the completion of a tour of duty during which any speeding offence is detected. Speedometers can be checked using either of the following methods:
a) The time taken to travel along a certified measured distance using a certified stop watch.
b) Against another type approved speed measuring device, NOT fitted to the vehicle e.g. Laser or Radar equipment.
Test results will be recorded on the vehicles speedometer register (Form 1411) and noted in the officers’ pocket book. Speedometer tests must be witnessed by two officers. Speedometer registers will be kept on area and must be available for production at court if required.
8.3.Stopwatches used to check speedometers must be certified for accuracy every 2 years. Certificates of accuracy will be kept on area and must be available for inspection or production at court if necessary.
8.4.Vascar and Police Pilot are in-car, speed detection devices fitted to some vehicles. Each unit must be calibrated weekly and
After any wheel change
After any repair or replacement of the unit or its component parts ( including the vehicles speedometer).
All calibration checks will be recorded on the vehicles calibration test register, which must be available for production at court if required.
8.5.If a speeding offence is detected using a Vascar/Police Pilot unit, an accuracy check will be completed before the end of the officers’ tour of duty and recorded in their pocket book.
8.6.If a vehicle fitted with Vascar/Police Pilot is also equipped with a video camera, calibration and accuracy checks will be recorded on tape.
8.7.Officers must be in a position to be able to give evidence in court as to how and when calibration and accuracy checks were carried out.
Don't you just love google..
see more ...
[url]
http://www.kent.police.uk/About%20Kent%20Police/Po...
[/url]
You may also wish to know wether the officer in question has been trained , this may be why he didn't specify a speed if he hasn't had training he may not be authorised to do so.
Every time I have been stopped for speeding except by camera the officer has allways told me the alledged speed he recorded.
Edited by mark69sheer on Saturday 20th October 21:45
It's not the requirement of the court.
The stated case stands, a calibrated speedo is not a requirement to secure a conviction, which is exactly what I said, so you are wrong.
If Kent choose not to prosecute without a calibrated speedo that's their choice, but they don't have to.
However *in this case* it would be very difficult in cross-examination for the witness not to crumble.
JustinP1 said:
So... the technical and legality stands that it is not needed, and the case should stand.
However *in this case* it would be very difficult in cross-examination for the witness not to crumble.
However *in this case* it would be very difficult in cross-examination for the witness not to crumble.
Why ?
All the witness has to do is stand up & tell the court what they observed.
Then it's a matter for the court to decide, having heard all the evidence.
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