Motorways won't get wider but they'll get more speed cameras
Discussion
As it says on the tin:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/ind...
Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
Speed cameras are to be installed on large sections of the motorway network
under a government plan to reduce congestion and vehicle emissions by cutting and strictly enforcing the speed limit at peak times.
The plan was announced as the Department for Transport published forecasts that congestion will rise by at least 28 per cent by 2025. It believes that "active traffic management" - in which the speed limit varies according to the conditions - will be a cheaper way of accommodating rising traffic levels than widening motorways.
Proposals to widen the M6 between Birmingham and Manchester and sections of the M1 may now be dropped. The department will instead build gantries at intervals across congested sections of the motorway network. The gantries will carry cameras and digital signs displaying the limit, which will be reduced to between 40mph and 60mph depending on the volume of traffic.
A trial of the variable-speed-limit system on the M42, southeast of Birmingham, has shown that more than 95 per cent of drivers comply. The limit on the 11-mile stretch of motorway is enforced by eight cameras rotated among 96 locations.
Police have tended to carry out very little speed-limit enforcement on motorways and a government survey found that more than half of cars on the motorway network exceeded the 70mph limit last year.
The M42 trial, and a similar scheme on the southwest section of the M25, found that reducing the limit resulted in faster average journeys because vehicles were less likely to brake sharply, which causes tailbacks. Overall fuel consumption fell by 4 per cent and vehicle emissions by 10 per cent.
The trial included use of the hard shoulder as a running lane in peak times and found that this reduced average journey times on the northbound carriageway by more than a quarter.
Ruth Kelly, the Transport Secretary, confirmed yesterday that the hard shoulder would be used as an extra lane on two short sections of the M6. She also said that variable speed limits would be introduced on other parts of the motorway around Birmingham and that a feasibility study would take place into introducing them across much of the motorway network.
In an interview with The Times, she said: "The trial shows there is a real culture change. People are focusing on the way they are driving and there is almost complete compliance with the limit. It's about trying to encourage a regular flow of traffic rather than stop-start conditions. It reduces emissions and many people would prefer it to taking land to widen a road."
She said that the study would consider introducing different speed limits for different lanes. On a four-lane motorway, the limit on the two outside lanes could be 60mph while on the two inside lanes, where traffic joins and exits, the limit could be reduced to 40mph or 50mph.
The Transport Department forecasts show that, even assuming improvements to traffic flow on motorways, journeys on roads in England will take 4 per cent, or three seconds, longer per kilometre by 2025.
Theresa Villiers, the Shadow Transport Secretary, said that Mrs Kelly was seeking to distract attention from cuts in the roadbuilding programme. "Conservatives welcome more hard-shoulder driving and we have repeatedly called for more active traffic management and efficient use of existing road space," Ms Villiers said. "However, such schemes should not be used as an excuse to put the brakes on the much-needed improvement to the worst road bottlenecks."
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/ind...
Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
Speed cameras are to be installed on large sections of the motorway network
under a government plan to reduce congestion and vehicle emissions by cutting and strictly enforcing the speed limit at peak times.
The plan was announced as the Department for Transport published forecasts that congestion will rise by at least 28 per cent by 2025. It believes that "active traffic management" - in which the speed limit varies according to the conditions - will be a cheaper way of accommodating rising traffic levels than widening motorways.
Proposals to widen the M6 between Birmingham and Manchester and sections of the M1 may now be dropped. The department will instead build gantries at intervals across congested sections of the motorway network. The gantries will carry cameras and digital signs displaying the limit, which will be reduced to between 40mph and 60mph depending on the volume of traffic.
A trial of the variable-speed-limit system on the M42, southeast of Birmingham, has shown that more than 95 per cent of drivers comply. The limit on the 11-mile stretch of motorway is enforced by eight cameras rotated among 96 locations.
Police have tended to carry out very little speed-limit enforcement on motorways and a government survey found that more than half of cars on the motorway network exceeded the 70mph limit last year.
The M42 trial, and a similar scheme on the southwest section of the M25, found that reducing the limit resulted in faster average journeys because vehicles were less likely to brake sharply, which causes tailbacks. Overall fuel consumption fell by 4 per cent and vehicle emissions by 10 per cent.
The trial included use of the hard shoulder as a running lane in peak times and found that this reduced average journey times on the northbound carriageway by more than a quarter.
Ruth Kelly, the Transport Secretary, confirmed yesterday that the hard shoulder would be used as an extra lane on two short sections of the M6. She also said that variable speed limits would be introduced on other parts of the motorway around Birmingham and that a feasibility study would take place into introducing them across much of the motorway network.
In an interview with The Times, she said: "The trial shows there is a real culture change. People are focusing on the way they are driving and there is almost complete compliance with the limit. It's about trying to encourage a regular flow of traffic rather than stop-start conditions. It reduces emissions and many people would prefer it to taking land to widen a road."
She said that the study would consider introducing different speed limits for different lanes. On a four-lane motorway, the limit on the two outside lanes could be 60mph while on the two inside lanes, where traffic joins and exits, the limit could be reduced to 40mph or 50mph.
The Transport Department forecasts show that, even assuming improvements to traffic flow on motorways, journeys on roads in England will take 4 per cent, or three seconds, longer per kilometre by 2025.
Theresa Villiers, the Shadow Transport Secretary, said that Mrs Kelly was seeking to distract attention from cuts in the roadbuilding programme. "Conservatives welcome more hard-shoulder driving and we have repeatedly called for more active traffic management and efficient use of existing road space," Ms Villiers said. "However, such schemes should not be used as an excuse to put the brakes on the much-needed improvement to the worst road bottlenecks."
That will work well on the way into Leeds. Problem is road is full at peak times. They have tried traffic lights on the slip roads with little success - congestion moves back a bit but still there. Active management would just extend the jam further back.
Imagine if the internet was run this way - they would have us all sharing dial-ups and restricting downloads!
Imagine if the internet was run this way - they would have us all sharing dial-ups and restricting downloads!
Is Ruth Kelly a complete Idiot??
Of course they sodding well comply for two very good reasons!! First, has she every tried driving on the M42 at rush our? Or the M25 Southern section? The variable limit bares little relation to the speed that is actually achievable on most occiaions due to traffic levels, and if theres an accident you can forget it. Second during periods where traffic does flow, nobody wants to be bloody fined and get points on their licence and possibly lose their Job just for trying to get wherever their going on time.
I'll Tell you what Ruth Kelly should do, She should get out of her Glass tower surrouned by arse licking ministers and Secretaries, ditch the luxury limo and driver and try travelling around this country as millions of commuters have to do every day. She should do this without warning and incognito so as people like TFL and the train operators are unaware she is travelling so as she can see the full horror that we all have to deal with on a daily basis, then perhaps she can better understand the situation and actually symathise with the travelling populace. Perhaps then she'll understand why people in rural areas have no choice but to drive cars, perhaps she'll understand that trains actually are overcrowded (when they run) and are late and unreliable, then perhaps she might just realise that the ONLY real, safe, cheap and reliable way to regularly travel around our fair Isle is to do it by car.
I wonder if this Government truely wants to win the next election.
Of course they sodding well comply for two very good reasons!! First, has she every tried driving on the M42 at rush our? Or the M25 Southern section? The variable limit bares little relation to the speed that is actually achievable on most occiaions due to traffic levels, and if theres an accident you can forget it. Second during periods where traffic does flow, nobody wants to be bloody fined and get points on their licence and possibly lose their Job just for trying to get wherever their going on time.
I'll Tell you what Ruth Kelly should do, She should get out of her Glass tower surrouned by arse licking ministers and Secretaries, ditch the luxury limo and driver and try travelling around this country as millions of commuters have to do every day. She should do this without warning and incognito so as people like TFL and the train operators are unaware she is travelling so as she can see the full horror that we all have to deal with on a daily basis, then perhaps she can better understand the situation and actually symathise with the travelling populace. Perhaps then she'll understand why people in rural areas have no choice but to drive cars, perhaps she'll understand that trains actually are overcrowded (when they run) and are late and unreliable, then perhaps she might just realise that the ONLY real, safe, cheap and reliable way to regularly travel around our fair Isle is to do it by car.
I wonder if this Government truely wants to win the next election.
Edited by tvrslag on Friday 26th October 11:22
me - traffic flows faster when there's an extra lane? Who'd have thought it?Not sure that having different limits in different lanes (L1+L2 @40mph v L3+L4@60mph) is a good idea either - doesn't this mean that to go from one lane to another you have to either speed in L2 to pull safely into L3, or pull dangerously into L3 before accelerating? Seems a bloody stupid idea really.
Still - I was more worried before reading that report that "they" were going to strictly enforce the NSL on motorways
From original report - "Overall fuel consumption fell by 4 per cent and vehicle emissions by 10 per cent". How did they measure this?
I would have more faith in variable limits if the limits were actually matched to the conditions. Example - a virtually empty M42 at 5am on a clear,dry summer's morning and the signs stated a 50mph limit.
I would have more faith in variable limits if the limits were actually matched to the conditions. Example - a virtually empty M42 at 5am on a clear,dry summer's morning and the signs stated a 50mph limit.
they did have various "environmental measurement" things sited on some bridges and next to the motorway...so assume with those...
I think we've all seen some peculiarities with the limits (50mph @ 05:00 is quite common) BUT from personal experience (used to be based in Tamworth living in Marlow) opening up the hard shoulder did reduce average drive times on the daily commute!!
I think we've all seen some peculiarities with the limits (50mph @ 05:00 is quite common) BUT from personal experience (used to be based in Tamworth living in Marlow) opening up the hard shoulder did reduce average drive times on the daily commute!!
turbobloke said:
....Police have tended to carry out very little speed-limit enforcement on motorways as they don't gain the huge revenues that arbitrarily sited speed camera vans do. A government survey found that this was simply a revenue gaining exercise as more than half of cars on the motorway network exceeded the 70mph limit last year and many did in complete safety.
.....In an interview with The Times, she said: "The trial shows there is a real culture change. People are not focusing on the way they are driving as they are so scared of getting a speeding ticket from the cameras and for that reason there is a maddening lack of lane discipline whilst drivers attempt to comply with the limit but can't so they travel 5-10mph below it 'to make sure'. It's not about trying to encourage a regular flow of traffic we'd rather have the money from the cameras to spend on anything other than roads and proper roads policing."
EFA.....In an interview with The Times, she said: "The trial shows there is a real culture change. People are not focusing on the way they are driving as they are so scared of getting a speeding ticket from the cameras and for that reason there is a maddening lack of lane discipline whilst drivers attempt to comply with the limit but can't so they travel 5-10mph below it 'to make sure'. It's not about trying to encourage a regular flow of traffic we'd rather have the money from the cameras to spend on anything other than roads and proper roads policing."
philbes said:
From original report - "Overall fuel consumption fell by 4 per cent and vehicle emissions by 10 per cent". How did they measure this?
I would have more faith in variable limits if the limits were actually matched to the conditions. Example - a virtually empty M42 at 5am on a clear,dry summer's morning and the signs stated a 50mph limit.
They didn't, they made it up.I would have more faith in variable limits if the limits were actually matched to the conditions. Example - a virtually empty M42 at 5am on a clear,dry summer's morning and the signs stated a 50mph limit.
This is REALLY worrying...anyone who's used the M42 (or the M25 Heathrow bit) will know how stressful and difficult it is to drive, with random speed-limit changes, people not looking, people not indicating, people driving at the SAME speed side-by-side, and generally people driving far too slowly.
To expand this to the other major M-ways in the country will just add time, stress, and hassle to all our journeys...
...C***S!!!
To expand this to the other major M-ways in the country will just add time, stress, and hassle to all our journeys...
...C***S!!!
havoc said:
This is REALLY worrying...anyone who's used the M42 (or the M25 Heathrow bit) will know how stressful and difficult it is to drive, with random speed-limit changes, people not looking, people not indicating, people driving at the SAME speed side-by-side, and generally people driving far too slowly.
To expand this to the other major M-ways in the country will just add time, stress, and hassle to all our journeys...
...C***S!!!
People keep saying this. But I found it really easy for the 6 months I was driving it every day. I just did the speed the signs said. Normally 50. I dont get the problem you mention of people driving next to each other..... this is why there is more than one lane. To expand this to the other major M-ways in the country will just add time, stress, and hassle to all our journeys...
...C***S!!!
If I was in Lane 1 and the hardshoulder was available I'd use that and create a bit of space in the "normal" lanes then filter back in then the signs say "this lane for exit only", normally into a space someone left in Lane 1 because they wanted the exit.
What really pissed me off were the days they didn't run the hard shoulder so I had an extra 10 minutes on my journey and lots of clutch killing stop start to get on the motorway for no reason.
I'd much sooner have the variable limits than the current 80 to 10 to 70 to 20 to 30 to 80 to 10 to 70 we get on conjested motorways currently. Do away with the cameras though and put some proper cops on the road.
Munter said:
havoc said:
This is REALLY worrying...anyone who's used the M42 (or the M25 Heathrow bit) will know how stressful and difficult it is to drive, with random speed-limit changes, people not looking, people not indicating, people driving at the SAME speed side-by-side, and generally people driving far too slowly.
To expand this to the other major M-ways in the country will just add time, stress, and hassle to all our journeys...
...C***S!!!
People keep saying this. But I found it really easy for the 6 months I was driving it every day. I just did the speed the signs said. Normally 50. I dont get the problem you mention of people driving next to each other..... this is why there is more than one lane. To expand this to the other major M-ways in the country will just add time, stress, and hassle to all our journeys...
...C***S!!!
If I was in Lane 1 and the hardshoulder was available I'd use that and create a bit of space in the "normal" lanes then filter back in then the signs say "this lane for exit only", normally into a space someone left in Lane 1 because they wanted the exit.
What really pissed me off were the days they didn't run the hard shoulder so I had an extra 10 minutes on my journey and lots of clutch killing stop start to get on the motorway for no reason.
I'd much sooner have the variable limits than the current 80 to 10 to 70 to 20 to 30 to 80 to 10 to 70 we get on conjested motorways currently. Do away with the cameras though and put some proper cops on the road.
as you approach the exit (way before the count down things) they post up that "this lane only to be used for exit" or something similar...if you're using the hardshoulder and not exiting you either filter back onto lane 1 or go off, up and back on..
I never saw any issues when I was using it!!
I never saw any issues when I was using it!!
esselte said:
Munter,what happenned at the junctions? how did people exit the M/W if people were using the hard shoulder as a running lane?
Yep what Marcellus said. Part of the cost of running on the hardshoulder is putting in these the Matrx Signs that say essentailly get out of the hardshoulder unless you want this exit. At that point generally a few cars swap lanes. Essentially it gives you a 1/2 mile long slip road entrance rather than a normal sized one (200ft?) which I felt made the transition at junctions smoother as people had more time to find the gap needed and change lane.Edited by Munter on Friday 26th October 13:57
Oh great!
what a typicallyed up solution to a problem thats never been addressed properly in the first place.
I know of some great new ideas for the rampant dickheads in charge of the contry.
Why not wait till drugs go too far then make being clean illegal . .oh sorry they've allready thought of that.
or when the schools get so bad that exams can't be passed give uni places to dropouts.. oh they allready do that...
40mph limits
How the dare they.
And plod will willingly enforce this LAW won't he....
what a typically
ed up solution to a problem thats never been addressed properly in the first place.I know of some great new ideas for the rampant dickheads in charge of the contry.
Why not wait till drugs go too far then make being clean illegal . .oh sorry they've allready thought of that.
or when the schools get so bad that exams can't be passed give uni places to dropouts.. oh they allready do that...
40mph limits
How the
dare they.And plod will willingly enforce this LAW won't he....
mark - calm down mate!!
Yes the motorways are overly congested (especially at peak times) and yes they probably do need to be made wider BUT can we as taxpayers a) afford it, b) live with the roadworks to make them, c) want more of our countryside turned from green to tarmac?
I suggest the answers are no, no & no.
Hardshoulders (yes we all know are there for a reason etc etc etc) can be made to alieviate the congestion (Proven) are safe to be used in a controlled manner (proven), improve average speeds (proven), won't cost £££££, won't be a nightmare as there's nothing (much) to build and won't ruin the countryside.
Did you ever actaully use teh M42 hard shoulder trial on a regular basis?
Yes the motorways are overly congested (especially at peak times) and yes they probably do need to be made wider BUT can we as taxpayers a) afford it, b) live with the roadworks to make them, c) want more of our countryside turned from green to tarmac?
I suggest the answers are no, no & no.
Hardshoulders (yes we all know are there for a reason etc etc etc) can be made to alieviate the congestion (Proven) are safe to be used in a controlled manner (proven), improve average speeds (proven), won't cost £££££, won't be a nightmare as there's nothing (much) to build and won't ruin the countryside.
Did you ever actaully use teh M42 hard shoulder trial on a regular basis?
Marcellus said:
mark - calm down mate!!
Yes the motorways are overly congested (especially at peak times) and yes they probably do need to be made wider BUT can we as taxpayers a) afford it, b) live with the roadworks to make them, c) want more of our countryside turned from green to tarmac?
I suggest the answers are no, no & no.
Hardshoulders (yes we all know are there for a reason etc etc etc) can be made to alieviate the congestion (Proven) are safe to be used in a controlled manner (proven), improve average speeds (proven), won't cost £££££, won't be a nightmare as there's nothing (much) to build and won't ruin the countryside.
Did you ever actaully use teh M42 hard shoulder trial on a regular basis?
I suggest the answers are Yes, Yes, Yes. The bit about turning countryside into tarmac is silly. Do you know what percentage of the land is actually road? Yes the motorways are overly congested (especially at peak times) and yes they probably do need to be made wider BUT can we as taxpayers a) afford it, b) live with the roadworks to make them, c) want more of our countryside turned from green to tarmac?
I suggest the answers are no, no & no.
Hardshoulders (yes we all know are there for a reason etc etc etc) can be made to alieviate the congestion (Proven) are safe to be used in a controlled manner (proven), improve average speeds (proven), won't cost £££££, won't be a nightmare as there's nothing (much) to build and won't ruin the countryside.
Did you ever actaully use teh M42 hard shoulder trial on a regular basis?
mark69sheer said:
Oh great!
40mph limits
How the dare they.
I think they 40mph limits
How the
dare they. dare to avoid you doing 10 mph in the congestion which you rushed upto at 80mph. They dare thought you'd prefer to slow down a bit and cruse at a steady speed rather than virtually stop and wait. And they wanted to do it cheaply and fast while upsetting you (as in the public) as little as possible.But you know if thats not what you want, if you'd like something more expensive, or that'll take longer to implement, or you just plain LIKE sitting stationary on the motorway then fine go ahead and complain to your MP I guess.
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