Dangerous Driving on M4
Discussion
I'm just looking for some honest opinions, I don't want to go to jail!
I was stopped for Dangerous Driving on M4, I was undertaking and weaving slightly, passing 2 cars, near but not over the speed limit, approx 70mph. A police car with 1 policeman in it stopped me. I have 3 points on my license.
1)what is my likely penalty/outcome. I cant find many case histories on the net?
2)would the undercover volvo have had a camera on board?
3)do they present this footage in court?
Thanks,
S
I was stopped for Dangerous Driving on M4, I was undertaking and weaving slightly, passing 2 cars, near but not over the speed limit, approx 70mph. A police car with 1 policeman in it stopped me. I have 3 points on my license.
1)what is my likely penalty/outcome. I cant find many case histories on the net?
2)would the undercover volvo have had a camera on board?
3)do they present this footage in court?
Thanks,
S
smithy69 said:
I was stopped for Dangerous Driving on M4, I was undertaking and weaving slightly, passing 2 cars, near but not over the speed limit, approx 70mph.
Minimum 12 month ban, mandatory retest, large fine and possible prison sentence(up to 6 months in magistrates court or 2 years at Crown court), though the latter is less likely if no actual accident/injury occured as a result of the dangerous driving. It never pays to plead guilty to this offence as the court has the power to hear the case and choose to convict on the lesser charge of careless driving.I assume your moment of muppetry was somewhat downplayed in your description for you to get a dangerous driving charge.
Get yourself a competant lawyer, a bus pass and read the following thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
If more people just used the correct f**king lanes then there'd be less opportunity for passing on the left and weaving. I really wish they'd have a crackdown on lane-hogging. Courtesy and consideration obviously aren't reason enough for some people to keep left, so they need to feel that there's a good chance of being punished if they don't. Of course this would entail a return to a proper police presence on motorways and DCs.
Plastic chicken said:
Was there not a recent thread suggesting that undertaking might not be illegal..?
He hasn't been reported for undertaking.He has for careless/dangerous driving, which relates to the manner in which you carry out any driving activity.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 21st November 07:01
GPSHead said:
If more people just used the correct f**king lanes then there'd be less opportunity for passing on the left and weaving. I really wish they'd have a crackdown on lane-hogging. Courtesy and consideration obviously aren't reason enough for some people to keep left, so they need to feel that there's a good chance of being punished if they don't. Of course this would entail a return to a proper police presence on motorways and DCs.
Police presence on motorways would not appear to be the problem in this case, since the OP got pulled.Arguably the trafpol should be enforcing the "keep left" rules as much as they do "no undertaking", then it would be a level playing field. Not sure whether "not keeping left" is actually dangerous though, although mighty irritating and inconvenient.
Of course, two wrongs don't make a right. Whether you regard undertaking as wrong and in what circumstance is a separate issue covered on other threads.
John
smithy69 said:
I'm just looking for some honest opinions, I don't want to go to jail!
I was stopped for Dangerous Driving on M4, I was undertaking and weaving slightly, passing 2 cars, near but not over the speed limit, approx 70mph. A police car with 1 policeman in it stopped me. I have 3 points on my license.
1)what is my likely penalty/outcome. I cant find many case histories on the net?
2)would the undercover volvo have had a camera on board?
3)do they present this footage in court?
Thanks,
S
Can't comment on how the courts would look at it, but ALL roads policing cars have recording equipment on them and yes, it is submissable in courtI was stopped for Dangerous Driving on M4, I was undertaking and weaving slightly, passing 2 cars, near but not over the speed limit, approx 70mph. A police car with 1 policeman in it stopped me. I have 3 points on my license.
1)what is my likely penalty/outcome. I cant find many case histories on the net?
2)would the undercover volvo have had a camera on board?
3)do they present this footage in court?
Thanks,
S
If nobody was hurt, there was no accident and there aren't any serious aggrevating factors (such as not stopping for the police or you were in an HGV etc), you've got no chance of being imprisoned. So don't worry about that.
Dangerous Driving is what's called an 'either way offence'. This means when you're summonsed to Magistrates Court you can attend and, most likely in your case, you will be able to decide whether you want your case dealt with by a Magistrates Court or whether you would like a jury trial in a Crown Court.
In either instance, magistrates or a jury can hear the case in it's entirety (assuming you plead not guilty, which I believe you should) and find you not guilty of dangerous driving but guilty of careless driving instead, of which the penalties are far less severe. A jury, with no victims to feel sorry for, no accident to be responsible for and no mean criminal in front of them, could be very likely to find it easier to opt for careless driving than for the serious charge of dangerous driving.
Whatever you decide to do, I would get in contact with a solicitor now and discuss the case. My aim would be for the solicitor to apply pressure to the CPS before the trial process begins to offer a plea of guilty to careless driving in return for having the dangerous driving dropped. A good number of weak dangerous driving cases are lowered to careless this way. Remember, if you have traffic officers willing to stand up in court and describe your weaving about and undertaking, it would be difficult to escape a conviction for careless driving, and Careless driving would be a much better result in terms of penalties.
As has been said, if you were convicted of Dangerous Driving, you'd be looking at a large fine and a minimum 12 month disqualification. To have your licence returned, you'd have to complete an extended retest. With careless driving, it is still possible to lose your licence, although if the circumstances are as described, I think you'd be more likely to get 5 or 6 points and a fine.
If there is more to the case than you're letting on, for example you were being competitive with another car at the time or you caused an incident, then all the more important that you contact a solicitor and discuss your case.
Dangerous Driving is what's called an 'either way offence'. This means when you're summonsed to Magistrates Court you can attend and, most likely in your case, you will be able to decide whether you want your case dealt with by a Magistrates Court or whether you would like a jury trial in a Crown Court.
In either instance, magistrates or a jury can hear the case in it's entirety (assuming you plead not guilty, which I believe you should) and find you not guilty of dangerous driving but guilty of careless driving instead, of which the penalties are far less severe. A jury, with no victims to feel sorry for, no accident to be responsible for and no mean criminal in front of them, could be very likely to find it easier to opt for careless driving than for the serious charge of dangerous driving.
Whatever you decide to do, I would get in contact with a solicitor now and discuss the case. My aim would be for the solicitor to apply pressure to the CPS before the trial process begins to offer a plea of guilty to careless driving in return for having the dangerous driving dropped. A good number of weak dangerous driving cases are lowered to careless this way. Remember, if you have traffic officers willing to stand up in court and describe your weaving about and undertaking, it would be difficult to escape a conviction for careless driving, and Careless driving would be a much better result in terms of penalties.
As has been said, if you were convicted of Dangerous Driving, you'd be looking at a large fine and a minimum 12 month disqualification. To have your licence returned, you'd have to complete an extended retest. With careless driving, it is still possible to lose your licence, although if the circumstances are as described, I think you'd be more likely to get 5 or 6 points and a fine.
If there is more to the case than you're letting on, for example you were being competitive with another car at the time or you caused an incident, then all the more important that you contact a solicitor and discuss your case.
smithy69 said:
1)what is my likely penalty/outcome. I cant find many case histories on the net?
2)would the undercover volvo have had a camera on board?
3)do they present this footage in court?
1) You won't find too many case histories on the net for simple cases, unless you're willing to subscribe to fairly expensive legal sites, but there are resources you can use. 2)would the undercover volvo have had a camera on board?
3)do they present this footage in court?
- http://www.bailii.org/ list high court and appeal cases, you need to search for dangerous driving on there. Most will be for Death by Dangerous, though.
- http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/Ukpga_19910040_en_2.htm This is the actual wording of the road traffic act.
- http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/chapter_b.html These are the CPS guidelines for charging with driving offences. Take a look at the aggrevating factors and see how many you qualify for. The less, the more likely it is that the CPS would be keen for a gauranteed Careless conviction than a risky trial for Dangerous.
2) The undercover car may have had a video, but I'd have thought they'd have shown it to you when they stopped you if they did to try and get you to admit dangerous driving on the spot.
3) If there is a video, they could show it to the court, yes.
If this case does go to court, the prosecution will have to submit the evidence to you beforehand, this is called advanced disclosure and your solicitor would normally apply to the CPS for this once you received a summons. Although the CPS are supposed to do this in advance of the first hearing, the reality is they may only give it to you/ your solicitor on the morning of the first hearing. Until you know what evidence you're facing, it's very difficult to decide how to plea. In my case, they did exactly this so I pleaded not guilty in the first instance and the case was sent to Crown Court (in my case because of the seriousness of it, I had no choice). You have the choice if disclosure is late to either plead not guilty at that stage, or to ask for an adjournment to give you time to study the evidence against you.
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Wednesday 21st November 10:02
A good lawyer should be able to contact the CPS and tell them that you intend to plead 'not guilty' to dangerous driving and that they have been instructed to mount a robust defence. Then he/she can go on to say that if the charge is reduced to 'driving without due care and attention' that you'll plead guilty.
They may agree to that. It happened to me in 1964, but then times do change.
Good luck with this.
They may agree to that. It happened to me in 1964, but then times do change.
Good luck with this.
E36GUY said:
It is legal to undertake if the traffic in the outside lane is going less than 70 and your lane on the inside is faster as long as you are not exceeding 70 of course.
However, that is more relevent for heavy traffic situations rather than diving down the inside I think.
Only if you are in the inside lane and stay in it, if you for example change to an inner lane to pass the vehicle in front of you, then pull then out, this is not allowed.However, that is more relevent for heavy traffic situations rather than diving down the inside I think.
Incidently, there is no mention of 70 in the highway code in the situation you mention.
What it does say (for those who read this and dont know), is that:-
[b]DO NOT OVERTAKE ON THE LEFT OR MOVE TO A LANE ON YOUR LEFT TO OVERTAKE.
IN CONGESTED CONDITIONS, WHERE ADJACENT LANES OF TRAFFIC ARE MOVING AT SIMILAR SPEEDS, TRAFFIC IN LEFT HAND LANES MAY SOMETIMES BE MOVING FASTER THAN TRAFFIC TO THE RIGHT. IN THESE CONDITIONS YOU MAY KEEP UP WITH THE TRAFFIC IN YOUR LANE EVEN IF THIS MEANS PASSING TRAFFIC IN THE LANE TO YUR RIGHT.
DO NOT WEAVE IN AND OUT OF LANES TO OVERTAKE[/b]
Simple really. Except there is no defination of "Congested", only a judge can define that one.
Whilst I would like to see overtaking and undertaking being allowed, I can see a lot of incidents occurring as a lot of vehicles have blind spots in their nearside mirrors,(causing problems pulling over not realising a vehicle is coming up alongside your left hand side faster than you) which have just about been eliminated from offside mirrors.
Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 21st November 19:09
Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 21st November 19:10
Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 21st November 19:13
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