Pulled for Illegal Licence Plates - advice
Discussion
On my way home last night, I was pulled by a traffic policeman on joining the motorway for having illegal licence plates.
The traffic BiB stated that the lettering was non-standard (the numbers in the plate are a slightly different size to the letters) although the spacing was o.k. and couldn't be read by his ANPR.
Now I purchased this car (its a 1985 Fiesta XR2) as a run-around in Sept this year and it has had the same licence plates on it for over 10 years (so its not as though I bought the plates to be different for personal reasons, they were just the plates that happened to be on the car) having been dry stored for that time by the prevous owner.
I explained all this to the policeman and assurred him that I would purchase a legal set of plates now that the unbeknown fact to me that the plates were illegal, had been highlighted.
I explained that it had been purchased from ebay and had a full M.O.T prior to the sale (a week before) and so had the M.O.T pointed out the fact that the plates were illegal then I'd have changed them.
So despite the fact that in good faith I'd been driving around, I politely agreed with the policeman that they should be changed and indeed I have ordered a new set today, I was still issued with a fixed penalty notice (£30).
Now my feeling as a responsible citizen is that the police as public servants have a duty to point out to the public such things as stated by law that the plates should be a set standard. I agree with this and can see why the police thought that the plates should be changed (and I will comply with this) however, as in good faith (and partly ignorance) based on the fact that a M.O.T had been passed etc then I was unaware that the plates were illegal and therefore a caution or requirement to change the plates would have sufficed, however, I now feel that I have been punished for something that I didn't know about.
If I decide to have my day in court to state the circumstances, do I have a leg to stand on so to speak, or is it just a case of should have known better (put it down to experience) and pay up ?
The traffic BiB stated that the lettering was non-standard (the numbers in the plate are a slightly different size to the letters) although the spacing was o.k. and couldn't be read by his ANPR.
Now I purchased this car (its a 1985 Fiesta XR2) as a run-around in Sept this year and it has had the same licence plates on it for over 10 years (so its not as though I bought the plates to be different for personal reasons, they were just the plates that happened to be on the car) having been dry stored for that time by the prevous owner.
I explained all this to the policeman and assurred him that I would purchase a legal set of plates now that the unbeknown fact to me that the plates were illegal, had been highlighted.
I explained that it had been purchased from ebay and had a full M.O.T prior to the sale (a week before) and so had the M.O.T pointed out the fact that the plates were illegal then I'd have changed them.
So despite the fact that in good faith I'd been driving around, I politely agreed with the policeman that they should be changed and indeed I have ordered a new set today, I was still issued with a fixed penalty notice (£30).
Now my feeling as a responsible citizen is that the police as public servants have a duty to point out to the public such things as stated by law that the plates should be a set standard. I agree with this and can see why the police thought that the plates should be changed (and I will comply with this) however, as in good faith (and partly ignorance) based on the fact that a M.O.T had been passed etc then I was unaware that the plates were illegal and therefore a caution or requirement to change the plates would have sufficed, however, I now feel that I have been punished for something that I didn't know about.
If I decide to have my day in court to state the circumstances, do I have a leg to stand on so to speak, or is it just a case of should have known better (put it down to experience) and pay up ?
TVRwhoa said:
If I decide to have my day in court to state the circumstances, do I have a leg to stand on so to speak, or is it just a case of should have known better (put it down to experience) and pay up ?
You state you did not know they were illegal but they are. A court may sympathise but they will still find you guilty. I would save your time and effort if I were you and pay the ticket. It will be cheaper in the long run!old xr2, he probably decided its illegal & was going to book before for something before he even stopped you.
there have been links to the rules on numberplates on here before. i think you'll find older plates have more freedom & dont always confirm to newer regs. could be worth looking up, just to shoot him down in flames for your own enjoyment.
there have been links to the rules on numberplates on here before. i think you'll find older plates have more freedom & dont always confirm to newer regs. could be worth looking up, just to shoot him down in flames for your own enjoyment.
The sad truth is that your experience has simply created one more person who will cross the road and walk the other way the next time he sees a copper getting a kicking (or similar) it's actions like those you describe that alienate the general public, there was no reason at all why rather than a fixed penalty the copper could have issued a rectification notice that means you have to get the problem put right and then present a form stamped by an MOT tester at the local police station within a set period. The truth is the rectification form way well have cost you more in time, money and effort than the fixed penalty but you probably wouldn't have fealt so hard done by.
In answer to the question regarding BSI kite mark, no the police officer had a good look at the plates and remarked that they didn't have a mark. As they are at least ten years old and I suspect more like 15 years old, then I'm not sure whether a mark was a requirement then - so its likely that they wouldn't have had a mark from the time they were purchased.
I think these are the regs for you...
"...Number plates fitted before 1 September 2001
Number plates fitted before 1.9.2001 must display characters that meet the
dimensions shown in one of the two groups below:
Group 1
Group 2
Character height
89 mm
79 mm
Character width (except the figure 1 or letter I)
64 mm
57 mm
Character stroke
16 mm
14 mm
Space between characters
13 mm
11 mm
Space between groups
38 mm
33 mm
Side margins (minimum)
13 mm
11 mm
Top and bottom margins (minimum)
13 mm
11 mm
Space between vertical lines
19 mm
19 mm
"...Number plates fitted before 1 September 2001
Number plates fitted before 1.9.2001 must display characters that meet the
dimensions shown in one of the two groups below:
Group 1
Group 2
Character height
89 mm
79 mm
Character width (except the figure 1 or letter I)
64 mm
57 mm
Character stroke
16 mm
14 mm
Space between characters
13 mm
11 mm
Space between groups
38 mm
33 mm
Side margins (minimum)
13 mm
11 mm
Top and bottom margins (minimum)
13 mm
11 mm
Space between vertical lines
19 mm
19 mm
May you consider the following:
Check the legislation to confirm or otherwise that the plates are illegal. By the sound of it different sizes to characters and fiqures Plod may well have been correct.
http://www.tinyurl.com/m7v5
In particular
Reg 10(3)
Reg 14 and
Schedule 2
If the Regs confirm your plate does not comply then the offence is there.
As stated this matter could have been dealt with under Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme as described above of which you have been denied - but not a god given right..
You may consider writing to the Chief Superintendent of Police for the area where the offence was committed/reported pointing out the circumstances i.e. you were not aware offence committed as vehicle in that state when you bought it some time ago, not refused a MOT. Having had the matter drawn to your attention you have immediately rectified the matter in the purchase of new plates and fitted (attach copy invoice). Further the offence could have been dealt with under the less draconian method of VDRS. Under all the circumstances would it be possible to withdraw the FPN.
Make sure you ask for a reply in 21days from date of offence as you have 28 days to pay the FPN otherwise if not paid or no indication you wish a Court appearance it will be recorded as a fine with extras.
It saddens me that these relatively minor offences are being jumped on presumably because of the need to provide fiqures on productivity and league tables, discretion being kicked out of the window.
YOU CANNOT RUN A POLICE SERVICE AS A BUSINESS. NEITHER CAN A POLICE SERVICE OPERATE WITHOUT THE CONSENT (and goodwill) OF THE PUBLIC.
dvd
Check the legislation to confirm or otherwise that the plates are illegal. By the sound of it different sizes to characters and fiqures Plod may well have been correct.
http://www.tinyurl.com/m7v5
In particular
Reg 10(3)
Reg 14 and
Schedule 2
If the Regs confirm your plate does not comply then the offence is there.
As stated this matter could have been dealt with under Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme as described above of which you have been denied - but not a god given right..
You may consider writing to the Chief Superintendent of Police for the area where the offence was committed/reported pointing out the circumstances i.e. you were not aware offence committed as vehicle in that state when you bought it some time ago, not refused a MOT. Having had the matter drawn to your attention you have immediately rectified the matter in the purchase of new plates and fitted (attach copy invoice). Further the offence could have been dealt with under the less draconian method of VDRS. Under all the circumstances would it be possible to withdraw the FPN.
Make sure you ask for a reply in 21days from date of offence as you have 28 days to pay the FPN otherwise if not paid or no indication you wish a Court appearance it will be recorded as a fine with extras.
It saddens me that these relatively minor offences are being jumped on presumably because of the need to provide fiqures on productivity and league tables, discretion being kicked out of the window.
YOU CANNOT RUN A POLICE SERVICE AS A BUSINESS. NEITHER CAN A POLICE SERVICE OPERATE WITHOUT THE CONSENT (and goodwill) OF THE PUBLIC.
dvd
If its been issued with a valid MOT recently with illegal plates on the car get VOSA involved I'd say! If they check the car find them valid then you have grounds to get out of the fixed penalty notice otherwise if they are illegal VOSA will take a 'dim' view of the garage that issued the MOT.
sjtscott said:
If its been issued with a valid MOT recently with illegal plates on the car get VOSA involved I'd say! If they check the car find them valid then you have grounds to get out of the fixed penalty notice otherwise if they are illegal VOSA will take a 'dim' view of the garage that issued the MOT.
That is quite true.One is not sure, however, that we need every last one of the nation's MOT stations to start acting like rules-is-rules bureaucrats.
There seem to be numerous MOT testers who still have a grip on common sense and fair play. Let us not encourage the authorities to punish a reasonable tester for his reasonableness!
sjtscott said:
If its been issued with a valid MOT recently with illegal plates on the car get VOSA involved I'd say! If they check the car find them valid then you have grounds to get out of the fixed penalty notice otherwise if they are illegal VOSA will take a 'dim' view of the garage that issued the MOT.
That'll be one less local MOT testing station to take it to next time.flemke said:
sjtscott said:
If its been issued with a valid MOT recently with illegal plates on the car get VOSA involved I'd say! If they check the car find them valid then you have grounds to get out of the fixed penalty notice otherwise if they are illegal VOSA will take a 'dim' view of the garage that issued the MOT.
That is quite true.One is not sure, however, that we need every last one of the nation's MOT stations to start acting like rules-is-rules bureaucrats.
There seem to be numerous MOT testers who still have a grip on common sense and fair play. Let us not encourage the authorities to punish a reasonable tester for his reasonableness!
OP seems to forget that the plod have to tick lots of boxes and meet targets, it is easier to wind up the general public on things that could have been dealt with under the skill known as "discretion" than miss a target...
As has been pointed out, public that have had plod not use "discretion" may well ignore plod in trouble and walk the other way.....
As has been pointed out, public that have had plod not use "discretion" may well ignore plod in trouble and walk the other way.....
Mg6b said:
TVRwhoa said:
If I decide to have my day in court to state the circumstances, do I have a leg to stand on so to speak, or is it just a case of should have known better (put it down to experience) and pay up ?
You state you did not know they were illegal but they are. A court may sympathise but they will still find you guilty. I would save your time and effort if I were you and pay the ticket. It will be cheaper in the long run!Seems to be the conclusion.
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff