Clamped on private property
Discussion
At the rear of one of our offices there are parking spaces for the staff to use. There are apparently also a couple of spaces for the residents of the flats above to use. I didn't know this and have generally parked in one of those 2 spaces when I've visited the office.
Except last time I did this I got clamped, and it cost me £120 release fee.
They have only recently starting to clamp there and the kind clamping gentleman pointed out that those 2 spaces were in fact marked out differently to the rest of the spaces. I hadn't noticed and wouldn't have thought anything of this as we are in the process of preparing to hand the building back to the landlords so if anything I would have thought that they'd started to make preparations for the next occupants. The office manager knew about this and had told her staff but they have all moved out and she didn't think to tell me despite knowing that I'd be going in to finish preparing it for handover. I can't claim it back from work as I'm a civil servant.
Anyways, I want to appeal against the £120 and see if I can get it back - on the grounds of the sign being inadequate. The 2 spaces in question are nearest the road, there are another 3 spaces between them and the rear of the building. There is nothing at / on the actual 2 spaces in the way of clamping signage - just newer white lines and the number 21 painted on them. The actual sign is on the rear of the building so it's at right angles to the spaces - i.e. you wouldn't notice it (until the clamping man points it out). It's a pretty non-descript sign of black lettering on a whote background, affixed to a white wall, so it certainly doesn't jump out at you. If there had been a sign actually at the spaces (i.e. you'd see it when you drove into one of them) obviously I wouldn't have parked there. But when you park in a space that you've used umpteen times before, at various times of the day / night, you don't think to check the rear of the building for clamping signs, surely?
I've done some googling to see if there are any prescribed sizes for such signs etc but all I keep coming up with is a couple of companies who want to sell me a template letter which is guarenteed to get me my money back. Apparently.
So, PHers, any words of wisdom (apart from don't park there again)? Any loopholes you know of? The fella was hefty to say the least and was intimidating but I think to use that I would have had to report him to the police at the time? I checked his SIA card at the time and have also checked him on the SIA register, he's legit so that won't help me.
Except last time I did this I got clamped, and it cost me £120 release fee.
They have only recently starting to clamp there and the kind clamping gentleman pointed out that those 2 spaces were in fact marked out differently to the rest of the spaces. I hadn't noticed and wouldn't have thought anything of this as we are in the process of preparing to hand the building back to the landlords so if anything I would have thought that they'd started to make preparations for the next occupants. The office manager knew about this and had told her staff but they have all moved out and she didn't think to tell me despite knowing that I'd be going in to finish preparing it for handover. I can't claim it back from work as I'm a civil servant.
Anyways, I want to appeal against the £120 and see if I can get it back - on the grounds of the sign being inadequate. The 2 spaces in question are nearest the road, there are another 3 spaces between them and the rear of the building. There is nothing at / on the actual 2 spaces in the way of clamping signage - just newer white lines and the number 21 painted on them. The actual sign is on the rear of the building so it's at right angles to the spaces - i.e. you wouldn't notice it (until the clamping man points it out). It's a pretty non-descript sign of black lettering on a whote background, affixed to a white wall, so it certainly doesn't jump out at you. If there had been a sign actually at the spaces (i.e. you'd see it when you drove into one of them) obviously I wouldn't have parked there. But when you park in a space that you've used umpteen times before, at various times of the day / night, you don't think to check the rear of the building for clamping signs, surely?
I've done some googling to see if there are any prescribed sizes for such signs etc but all I keep coming up with is a couple of companies who want to sell me a template letter which is guarenteed to get me my money back. Apparently.
So, PHers, any words of wisdom (apart from don't park there again)? Any loopholes you know of? The fella was hefty to say the least and was intimidating but I think to use that I would have had to report him to the police at the time? I checked his SIA card at the time and have also checked him on the SIA register, he's legit so that won't help me.
Read this.
It would appear the die has been cast and especially as clamper registered with SIA
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/t_wheel-clamping_on_...
I suppose this is the same as a civil contract and that is between the driver who parked and the owner of the land (his agents). As Reg keeper of the vehicle (if you are) then there is no obligation to disclose who driver was.........but they have extracted the cash. May be a case for you to take them to the Civil Court for return of the cash as you were not involved in the actual contract, but as I say by handing over looks like they have you by the short and curlies.
dvd
It would appear the die has been cast and especially as clamper registered with SIA
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/t_wheel-clamping_on_...
I suppose this is the same as a civil contract and that is between the driver who parked and the owner of the land (his agents). As Reg keeper of the vehicle (if you are) then there is no obligation to disclose who driver was.........but they have extracted the cash. May be a case for you to take them to the Civil Court for return of the cash as you were not involved in the actual contract, but as I say by handing over looks like they have you by the short and curlies.
dvd
Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Thursday 17th January 20:40
Thanks - I found the same guide earlier, and having looked at it again it's brought up a few questions:
1)"If you park on private land without the owner's permission, they can legally clamp your vehicle...". Interesting, "Owners"
I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??
2)"there must be notices up where you can clearly see them..." the sign wasn't in helpful place at all, I've been in and out of that office loads over the last few months and hand on heart have never noticed the notice
3)"your vehicle is released as soon as you have said you will pay the release fee.." - he didn't unclamp it until AFTER I'd paid it & he'd given me a receipt
I think what I really need is some sort of guidance about how big the signs should be etc, buggered if I can find anything though
1)"If you park on private land without the owner's permission, they can legally clamp your vehicle...". Interesting, "Owners"
I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??2)"there must be notices up where you can clearly see them..." the sign wasn't in helpful place at all, I've been in and out of that office loads over the last few months and hand on heart have never noticed the notice
3)"your vehicle is released as soon as you have said you will pay the release fee.." - he didn't unclamp it until AFTER I'd paid it & he'd given me a receipt
I think what I really need is some sort of guidance about how big the signs should be etc, buggered if I can find anything though
I've already taken pictures and will be using them in my appeal letter.
This is so frustrating - google just keeps throwing up stuff that talks about loopholes but doesn't say what these loopholes are. If I thought it would be worth coughing up £15 to get one of these magical template letters that guarantees to get me my £120 back I would, but I think I'm maybe just a little too cynical..
This is so frustrating - google just keeps throwing up stuff that talks about loopholes but doesn't say what these loopholes are. If I thought it would be worth coughing up £15 to get one of these magical template letters that guarantees to get me my £120 back I would, but I think I'm maybe just a little too cynical..
http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/law/cases/arthur.htm
Car should have been released as soon as you indicated you would pay.
I assume the company have an SIA license as well.
Signs MUST be clearly posted. That is the main question to my mind. Do you have a photo of the car park and the sign?
Car should have been released as soon as you indicated you would pay.
I assume the company have an SIA license as well.
Signs MUST be clearly posted. That is the main question to my mind. Do you have a photo of the car park and the sign?
s-w-p said:
1)"If you park on private land without the owner's permission, they can legally clamp your vehicle...". Interesting, "Owners" I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??
Have you looked at the lease? I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??Its language may possibly give you an out.
Jasandjules said:
http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/law/cases/arthur.htm
Car should have been released as soon as you indicated you would pay.
I assume the company have an SIA license as well.
Signs MUST be clearly posted. That is the main question to my mind. Do you have a photo of the car park and the sign?
Thanks! That is really interesting. The way I that is that they clamp you so that you can't park on their land and therefore cause damage, but by clamping you they are actually making you do just that. Also that the threat of clamping is a deterrent, and can only be so if you have seen the signs, charging a release fee is extortion. This could be really useful. Hopefully.Car should have been released as soon as you indicated you would pay.
I assume the company have an SIA license as well.
Signs MUST be clearly posted. That is the main question to my mind. Do you have a photo of the car park and the sign?
He only released the car after I had paid. As I see it he should have taken the clamp off as soon as I said I'd pay - yet he waited for me to go indoors and get my cheque book then borrow £20 off a colleague as he would only take a cheque up to the value of the card. I'll admit that he did take it off straight after taking payment from me and giving me a receipt, but he shhould have done it before then. And as I'm looking for a technicality / loophole...
The fella is SIA registered, he put his number on the receipt and it checks out OK, the company appear to be SIA accredited to.
There is only ONE sign on the property and it's not at all clear. I have photos but can't upload to t'interweb - am happy to email though?
flemke said:
s-w-p said:
1)"If you park on private land without the owner's permission, they can legally clamp your vehicle...". Interesting, "Owners" I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??
Have you looked at the lease? I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??Its language may possibly give you an out.
As far as the lease goes for the flats above I think I'd have even less chance of getting my hands on that.
I was just thinking that if the people who live in the flats own them and they contracted the clampers then I think they're OK. But if the flat occupants RENT and have contracted the clampers then if I've read the CAB guide correctly they can't do this as they don't own the land - in whch case that could be my out ?
Let's face it, they're never in a million years going to just give you the money back.
You could try going through the motions, then using moneyclaimonline and hope they don't defend. But if they do then you may well lose.
Were you told to park there by your employer? Maybe you could claim it back?
Which branch of the Civil Service are you in - maybe there are revenge possibilities?
You could try going through the motions, then using moneyclaimonline and hope they don't defend. But if they do then you may well lose.
Were you told to park there by your employer? Maybe you could claim it back?
Which branch of the Civil Service are you in - maybe there are revenge possibilities?
s-w-p said:
flemke said:
s-w-p said:
1)"If you park on private land without the owner's permission, they can legally clamp your vehicle...". Interesting, "Owners" I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??
Have you looked at the lease? I though I was parked in our office carpark - which we don't own, we are tenants. May be worth finding out who contracted the clampers for 2 spaces used by the flats - i.e. if they are rented then surely the tenants can't do this as they are not the owners??Its language may possibly give you an out.
As far as the lease goes for the flats above I think I'd have even less chance of getting my hands on that.
I was just thinking that if the people who live in the flats own them and they contracted the clampers then I think they're OK. But if the flat occupants RENT and have contracted the clampers then if I've read the CAB guide correctly they can't do this as they don't own the land - in whch case that could be my out ?
Similarly, you must be able to ascertain from your employer what are the terms of its lease with its counterparty. You would (one presumes) have had a basis for believing that some spaces had been made available to employees such as yourself?
I would suggest that the purposes of this act then a tenant could be considered to be the owner. The tenant is entitled to use that space for a fixed term.
I would suggest the best means of defence is the poor signage and I wouldn't even bother appealling to the company involved. I would issue a small claims online, with the evidence being the photo and the guidance.
I would suggest the best means of defence is the poor signage and I wouldn't even bother appealling to the company involved. I would issue a small claims online, with the evidence being the photo and the guidance.
www.pepipoo.com has a cracking good forum on parking/clamping etc.
Edited by slow_poke on Friday 18th January 12:27
I'm no expert on parking offences by any stretch, hopefully someone else will chip in.
But I will say from what you have said the sign doesn't seem to clearly indicate the place where you parked, so it could be incorrectly signed.
I'd certainly be writing to the clamper in the first instance advising them of the incorrect signage and advising them you will be issuing court proceedings to recover your losses and further to ask them to explain why they have breached their own rules in not releasing the vehicle when you said you would pay.
Also ask them to prove (just a slightly off tangent idea) who drove your vehicle into the car park and thus entered into the private contract with them to accept any fees (assuming the signage is correct in any event) for parking there.
But I will say from what you have said the sign doesn't seem to clearly indicate the place where you parked, so it could be incorrectly signed.
I'd certainly be writing to the clamper in the first instance advising them of the incorrect signage and advising them you will be issuing court proceedings to recover your losses and further to ask them to explain why they have breached their own rules in not releasing the vehicle when you said you would pay.
Also ask them to prove (just a slightly off tangent idea) who drove your vehicle into the car park and thus entered into the private contract with them to accept any fees (assuming the signage is correct in any event) for parking there.
Be aware swp that if it had been a LA PCN job then by law there is a clear avenue of appeal to an independent Adjudicator not in the purse strings of the system.
In your case there is no such system and you will be appealing to heart (made of stone) of the firm that has you dosh.
Don't be surprised if you get a rejection.
dvd
In your case there is no such system and you will be appealing to heart (made of stone) of the firm that has you dosh.
Don't be surprised if you get a rejection.
dvd
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