Are relations with the police a lost cause?
Discussion
I'm not trying to make another BiB-bashing thread. Please try not to bash, equally, could the BiBs here please refrain from making needlessly provocative posts ( 
vonhosen!
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Having read the thread about having faith in the police, a rough count seems to indicate that the majority of people on this forum either don't have any faith or at best have faith in a number of individual policemen but not in the police as a whole.
It also strikes me that this forum is inherently populated by more conservative (not in the Tory-voting sense), generally law-abiding, mature (!) and intelligent (!!) people, i.e., the people who would naturally be on the police's side. If the majority of the police's natural allies feel negatively about the police (and this forum certainly seems to match my more general sample of people's experience in the wider world) have things reached a point where the breakdown is terminal? Or can it be recovered?
I'm sure that we all have ideas about what the police can do to improve things (and I'm sure some of these ideas will be expressed) but is there also anything we could and should do to improve things from our side? (I personally don't subscribe to suggestions like "we should be more understanding of their resource constraints", because my experience of the police seems to indicate that they have plenty of resources for fatuous things but none at all for the crimes, of which, I have been a victim -- but I'm sure such ideas will appear as well.
)
vonhosen! )Having read the thread about having faith in the police, a rough count seems to indicate that the majority of people on this forum either don't have any faith or at best have faith in a number of individual policemen but not in the police as a whole.
It also strikes me that this forum is inherently populated by more conservative (not in the Tory-voting sense), generally law-abiding, mature (!) and intelligent (!!) people, i.e., the people who would naturally be on the police's side. If the majority of the police's natural allies feel negatively about the police (and this forum certainly seems to match my more general sample of people's experience in the wider world) have things reached a point where the breakdown is terminal? Or can it be recovered?
I'm sure that we all have ideas about what the police can do to improve things (and I'm sure some of these ideas will be expressed) but is there also anything we could and should do to improve things from our side? (I personally don't subscribe to suggestions like "we should be more understanding of their resource constraints", because my experience of the police seems to indicate that they have plenty of resources for fatuous things but none at all for the crimes, of which, I have been a victim -- but I'm sure such ideas will appear as well.
)I disagree with the premise that this is a forum made up of people more likely to like the Police. I think the common connection is nothing do with with Conservatism as you describe. It's petrol beads who I'd suggest don't like the Police.
Once the CJS can actually deal with the burglars, robbers, violent people who the Police spend lots of time and resources putting before the Courts many many times, they will be on away to creating a Country everyone wants to see.
Spokey said:
I'm sure that we all have ideas about what the police can do to improve things, but is there also anything we could and should do to improve things from our side?
Yes. Vote a Government who'll build a Criminal Justice System around the productivity of the Police. Once the CJS can actually deal with the burglars, robbers, violent people who the Police spend lots of time and resources putting before the Courts many many times, they will be on away to creating a Country everyone wants to see.
Without wanting (no, really) to cast aspersions on PH'ers specifically, and getting into the dangerous land of generalisations, I think that the PH/SP&L community is hugely biased and a way off the view of the "man on the clapham omnibus". It is far from accurately representing the conservative, law-abiding, intelligentsia.
Now I am not saying that PH'ers are radical, criminal thickos (that would include me). But if I discussed many PH views with my middle-aged, middle-class, conservative, intelligent friends, they would be astounded with the concept that relationships with the police are in rapid and terminal decline.
Bert
Now I am not saying that PH'ers are radical, criminal thickos (that would include me). But if I discussed many PH views with my middle-aged, middle-class, conservative, intelligent friends, they would be astounded with the concept that relationships with the police are in rapid and terminal decline.
Bert
Edited by BertBert on Wednesday 30th January 14:01
The problem is not with the Police per se.
It's with the, often ill concieved, laws that they are obliged to enforce and the (Government) targets they have to meet.
Along with the apparent leniency of the CPS/Courts to repeat & serious offenders.
That and the general indifference and lack of respect that seems endemic in society at the moment.
The Police get blamed because they are the 'Front line' in the shambles that is our current law & order system.
Just MHO.
It's with the, often ill concieved, laws that they are obliged to enforce and the (Government) targets they have to meet.
Along with the apparent leniency of the CPS/Courts to repeat & serious offenders.
That and the general indifference and lack of respect that seems endemic in society at the moment.
The Police get blamed because they are the 'Front line' in the shambles that is our current law & order system.
Just MHO.
The case is more that if you have never had any dealings, or needed to have, with the Police, you would not have an idea about the declining relationship.
However, as more and more people have "unpleasant" dealings with them, more and more will be discovering the truth about the state of the relations.
Everyone knows about the high profile cases of failure, which are then very publically attributed to resource issues. Naturally, more and more people see, and are disappointed with, the allocation of these resources to non relevant tasks.
As crime features higher and higher on every years general priorities lists, and the council tax part of policing goes up and up ever year, and the level of policing goes down and down - it does not sit right with most law abiding citizens.
However, as more and more people have "unpleasant" dealings with them, more and more will be discovering the truth about the state of the relations.
Everyone knows about the high profile cases of failure, which are then very publically attributed to resource issues. Naturally, more and more people see, and are disappointed with, the allocation of these resources to non relevant tasks.
As crime features higher and higher on every years general priorities lists, and the council tax part of policing goes up and up ever year, and the level of policing goes down and down - it does not sit right with most law abiding citizens.
I have never been in trouble with the Police.
I have been stopped twice, the first time just after I took delivery of the M5 because the car didn't register on their computer and the second time because a couple of WPCs confused acceleration with outright speed (I politley put them right on that.
Neighbours have suffered long delays in Police attendance to burglaries.
The Police were not interested in the theft of my M3 five and a half years ago beyond givin gme a crime number.
Nothing there to make me take a negative attitude towards the Police.
I have, however, been shouted at in a very aggressive manner by PCs in the City, generally to tell me to get out of the way of whatever they might be up to (such as standing around near a weighbridge debating what to do with a van). Friends and colleagues have had similar expereiences. I have on such ovccasions stopped to tell the PC that his behaviour was unacceptable, which generally results in spluttering. That kind of behaviour seriously damages respect for the Police and betrays the desire of these petty wannabe stormtroopers to boss around the public. I realise that such idiots are a small minority, but the Police need to root out this kind of behaviour.
I have been stopped twice, the first time just after I took delivery of the M5 because the car didn't register on their computer and the second time because a couple of WPCs confused acceleration with outright speed (I politley put them right on that.
Neighbours have suffered long delays in Police attendance to burglaries.
The Police were not interested in the theft of my M3 five and a half years ago beyond givin gme a crime number.
Nothing there to make me take a negative attitude towards the Police.
I have, however, been shouted at in a very aggressive manner by PCs in the City, generally to tell me to get out of the way of whatever they might be up to (such as standing around near a weighbridge debating what to do with a van). Friends and colleagues have had similar expereiences. I have on such ovccasions stopped to tell the PC that his behaviour was unacceptable, which generally results in spluttering. That kind of behaviour seriously damages respect for the Police and betrays the desire of these petty wannabe stormtroopers to boss around the public. I realise that such idiots are a small minority, but the Police need to root out this kind of behaviour.
The question, Do you have faith in police, is open to so much subjective interpretation that it is just about worthless as an indicator. Trust is one interpretation but trust to do what? Behave honestly? Beat the living daylights out of a suspect? Reliance is another. I would suggest that most people rely on the police whether they like it or not. Or there's the 'belief founded on authority' interpretation but that needs the authority quoted for it to make sense. There's the religious interpretation as well where proof must be absent.
You cannot judge anything on such a woolly question.
In national opinion poles police come out very high when trust is in the question. These questions are concocted by professionals so one would assume, or perhaps hope, that the results are more valid.
Further, this is on PH where, one assumes, the flag of Speed Matters would bring people into conflict with the police more often than the norm. Also, the question was under Speed, Plod and the law and my subjective conclusion is that a lot of posters ask questions after an incident that has involved the police.
Odd though it might seem, the norm was that I got on quite well with my prisoners. I would suggest that if they were asked if they would trust the police to be honest in their dealings, their answer would be yes. When I was gaoler and I had to deal with every prisoner brought into the nick, virtually all sober ones were cooperative and pleasant and, although they did not use the phrase, 'Fair cop, guv.' all that often, most showed no resentment. The drunks tended to be friendly once they sobered up. Druggies were an exception but then they were often high.
So the comments from the police officers who post here to the effect that, if you did the speed, accept the consequences, mirrors the attitude most prisoners display.
The problem with the public relations of the police is that the bosses and policy makers are not honest. If there are not enough resources to deal with every burglary - and I know of no force where this is so - then the public should be told, quite clearly. The idea that there is a police state with regards to speed enforcement by traffic is nonsense. You are lucky to have two traffic cars out of a night in a 3000 strong force, so it's hardly flooding the area.
My experience as mainly a response PC, sergeant and inspector is that the public treat police with respect, trust and kindness. I've been assaulted but only by drunks. I've been treated with friendliness by wives of prisoners when searching houses. I would have needed a bladder the size of Belgium to accept all the offers of tea. That's not to mention the crumpets as well.
Anyone posting on here has a right to any opinion on the ability, trust, dependability or good relations with the police they wish. However, I would suggest it is unwise and unscientific to extrapolate this to the public at large. Most drivers do not drive over the speed limit regularly to an extent that would put them liable to be prosecuted. Perhaps that's something to consider.
Since I've retired I have met up with quite a few people I dealth with when in the job and I've spoken pleasantly with them all, regardless of whether they were victims, offenders or volunteers on ID parades. Do they have faith in me? Dammed if I know. But they must have thought I did a fair job otherwise they'd give me an earful.
The first bloke I arrested was a bit of an effort. I fumbled around a lot and needed a bit of help but I got there in the end. It was a bit like the first time I had sex, except that when I saw my prisoner around the division we used to have a pleasant chat together. It was all so different with the first girl.
You cannot judge anything on such a woolly question.
In national opinion poles police come out very high when trust is in the question. These questions are concocted by professionals so one would assume, or perhaps hope, that the results are more valid.
Further, this is on PH where, one assumes, the flag of Speed Matters would bring people into conflict with the police more often than the norm. Also, the question was under Speed, Plod and the law and my subjective conclusion is that a lot of posters ask questions after an incident that has involved the police.
Odd though it might seem, the norm was that I got on quite well with my prisoners. I would suggest that if they were asked if they would trust the police to be honest in their dealings, their answer would be yes. When I was gaoler and I had to deal with every prisoner brought into the nick, virtually all sober ones were cooperative and pleasant and, although they did not use the phrase, 'Fair cop, guv.' all that often, most showed no resentment. The drunks tended to be friendly once they sobered up. Druggies were an exception but then they were often high.
So the comments from the police officers who post here to the effect that, if you did the speed, accept the consequences, mirrors the attitude most prisoners display.
The problem with the public relations of the police is that the bosses and policy makers are not honest. If there are not enough resources to deal with every burglary - and I know of no force where this is so - then the public should be told, quite clearly. The idea that there is a police state with regards to speed enforcement by traffic is nonsense. You are lucky to have two traffic cars out of a night in a 3000 strong force, so it's hardly flooding the area.
My experience as mainly a response PC, sergeant and inspector is that the public treat police with respect, trust and kindness. I've been assaulted but only by drunks. I've been treated with friendliness by wives of prisoners when searching houses. I would have needed a bladder the size of Belgium to accept all the offers of tea. That's not to mention the crumpets as well.
Anyone posting on here has a right to any opinion on the ability, trust, dependability or good relations with the police they wish. However, I would suggest it is unwise and unscientific to extrapolate this to the public at large. Most drivers do not drive over the speed limit regularly to an extent that would put them liable to be prosecuted. Perhaps that's something to consider.
Since I've retired I have met up with quite a few people I dealth with when in the job and I've spoken pleasantly with them all, regardless of whether they were victims, offenders or volunteers on ID parades. Do they have faith in me? Dammed if I know. But they must have thought I did a fair job otherwise they'd give me an earful.
The first bloke I arrested was a bit of an effort. I fumbled around a lot and needed a bit of help but I got there in the end. It was a bit like the first time I had sex, except that when I saw my prisoner around the division we used to have a pleasant chat together. It was all so different with the first girl.
There's one very simple thing the Police where I live could do to improve relations with much of the community - be nice. On the rare occasions when we actually see coppers on the beat, it wouldn't be too much for them to say "Good Morning".
The area's pretty low crime, pretty middle-class (with all the encumbent "Daily HateMail" views of the Police). Walking past silently and moodily reinforces the feeling that they have isolated themselves from the community and are on a pwer trip. Saying hello to someone walking past breaks down those barriers. Occasionally it might remind someone of their civic duty and mention something they've seen. Equally, the scrote who ducks down nervously is ripe for a pull. In time, it would breed a bit more respect, get people on first name terms with their local PC McGarry, and build a bit more confidence.
I kick myself for not tearing a strip off the two mounted Police who didn't even acknowledge the little girls waving at them. A couple of minutes letting them pat the horses would have made friends for life, and gained an awful lot of respect from the parents and anyone else who saw it.
The area's pretty low crime, pretty middle-class (with all the encumbent "Daily HateMail" views of the Police). Walking past silently and moodily reinforces the feeling that they have isolated themselves from the community and are on a pwer trip. Saying hello to someone walking past breaks down those barriers. Occasionally it might remind someone of their civic duty and mention something they've seen. Equally, the scrote who ducks down nervously is ripe for a pull. In time, it would breed a bit more respect, get people on first name terms with their local PC McGarry, and build a bit more confidence.
I kick myself for not tearing a strip off the two mounted Police who didn't even acknowledge the little girls waving at them. A couple of minutes letting them pat the horses would have made friends for life, and gained an awful lot of respect from the parents and anyone else who saw it.
The fact is, as a law abiding member of the public, I have an expectation of the Police force which is based on experience of a different era. Much as I have an expectation of people in public life to have unblemished character and, if caught with their trousers down or fingers in the biscuit tin that, they would shuffle of quietly to a locked room and loaded webley.
The modern day police force is it seems incapable of fulfilling its fiduciary responsibility primarily because of poor management both internally and externally and, the perceived constraints of Health & Safety and political correctness. This has a negative effect on moral which in turn further reduces the efficiency of the service.
The lack of discipline which is now sadly embedded in our society inevitably means that at some point soon, policing in this country will have to evolve into a paramilitary force.
My enduring respect for individual officers is sometimes coloured by, the perceived inefficiency of the force as a whole to do as expected, that is to protect the community by upholding and enforcing the law.
The modern day police force is it seems incapable of fulfilling its fiduciary responsibility primarily because of poor management both internally and externally and, the perceived constraints of Health & Safety and political correctness. This has a negative effect on moral which in turn further reduces the efficiency of the service.
The lack of discipline which is now sadly embedded in our society inevitably means that at some point soon, policing in this country will have to evolve into a paramilitary force.
My enduring respect for individual officers is sometimes coloured by, the perceived inefficiency of the force as a whole to do as expected, that is to protect the community by upholding and enforcing the law.
BertBert said:
...they would be astounded with the concept that relationships with the police are in rapid and terminal decline.
Not sure I agree with that. Whenever I speak to people at work and the issue of the police come up, very very few have anything good to say at all. Mostly very negative - phrases similar to 'not worth reporting' and 'they did nothing' come up quite often. And the average age at work is probably around 40-45.Yung Man said:
Derek Smith said:
I would have needed a bladder the size of Belgium to accept all the offers of tea. That's not to mention the crumpets as well.
Women love a man in uniform.At court the sod pleased guilty and had all the TICs as well.
FishFace said:
Another issue that is present is the bullshit perpetuated by the chattering classes. In a similar vain to total lies such as "bla bla the Police will only target motorists".
i never had nothing but priase for the police till I got my first car (aged 27) then they sort of wrecked it for themselves.lesson learnt?
yes
dont buy a 911 and expect certain cretins to let you get on with your life, or any other nice car im guessing.
edit - conservative, yes, very.
Edited by DucatiGary on Wednesday 30th January 18:01
As a serving one myself I know exactly where you all are coming from,yes,even i have had crimes committed against me whne off duty and have had the telephone call giving me the crime number.
I have also been witness to crimes and took my own action only to be left high and dry at 3am in the morning holding onto someone who doesnt want to be in my company for whatever reason,then after several phone calls to ask if someone is coming, and how long ended up with his mates returning with crowbars and spanners asking me to let there mate go in a way that i couldnt refuse if you get my drift.
So,i suppose everyone has got horror stories about the police in all aspects of day to day policing,i blame the Government for having too much of a hand in telling the CCs what they want them to do,instead of the people of the locality in which each force serves having a bigger part and say what they would like the police to do in there day to day lives.
My main question to you all would be do you think that you could manage in your day to day routine if we didnt have the police to call on for assistance in your hour of need,but think before you say I would do this and do that to whoever,but would you because the toerags who confront you will know that there is no police ,so,i suppose there approach would be different to you as well.
Stefluc
I have also been witness to crimes and took my own action only to be left high and dry at 3am in the morning holding onto someone who doesnt want to be in my company for whatever reason,then after several phone calls to ask if someone is coming, and how long ended up with his mates returning with crowbars and spanners asking me to let there mate go in a way that i couldnt refuse if you get my drift.
So,i suppose everyone has got horror stories about the police in all aspects of day to day policing,i blame the Government for having too much of a hand in telling the CCs what they want them to do,instead of the people of the locality in which each force serves having a bigger part and say what they would like the police to do in there day to day lives.
My main question to you all would be do you think that you could manage in your day to day routine if we didnt have the police to call on for assistance in your hour of need,but think before you say I would do this and do that to whoever,but would you because the toerags who confront you will know that there is no police ,so,i suppose there approach would be different to you as well.
Stefluc
Having just been relieved of $200 by a corrupt Moscow policeman (wanted to see my papers and what money I was carrying. Put the money back having helped himself to most of it - cvnt), I can tell you that despite the minor reservations I posted above, I am pleased to live in a country in which the reflex reaction is to trust the Police. Nobody trusts the Police in Russia.
although I can see why plod get arsey with dangerous drivers and all that, I certainly wouldnt want to be skraping up the remainders after an RTA and for that i tip my hat, i could never do that.
it just winds me up somtimes the blatant green eye moster like PHer MG6B or whatever his name is, most of his posts are filled with envy and seems to want to take things out on those who have risked everything to make somthing for themselves, that sort of attitude does no good for the decent BiB on PH.
it just winds me up somtimes the blatant green eye moster like PHer MG6B or whatever his name is, most of his posts are filled with envy and seems to want to take things out on those who have risked everything to make somthing for themselves, that sort of attitude does no good for the decent BiB on PH.
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