Thursday 7th February 2008

999 Accident Investigation

Do emergency drivers need better training?

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It should polish out Sarg...

The Daily Express reports today that 188 people have been killed by emergency service vehicles involved in accidents over the last five years.

The report goes on to say that vehicles running on 'blue lights' were involved in 11,295 smashes in Britain between 2002 and 2007, with Police vehicles causing the most deaths - with over 30 recorded in 2007 alone - followed by the Ambulance Service and the Fire Brigade.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) warned that the true figure may be even higher as data was not available for every force.

Liberal democrat transport spokesman Norman Baker has written to both the Home Secretary and the President of the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) calling for a review of procedures to see how accidents can be minimised.

The IPCC have campaigned for black box recorders to be fitted to all police cars as they claim that this would stop drivers from taking unnecessary risks during police chases. The ACPO are considering introducing them on all new cars.

Kevin Clinton, the head of Road Safety at ROSPA said ‘High speed drives should only be undertaken if essential, and event then, safety should be the first priority to avoid turning one emergency into two’.

The RAC backed the call for a safety review, and added that the figure were ‘alarming’

[cowellsj]

Yes they do.

But I suspect the prob lies with local plod driving Astras etc. I'd love to see where the big numbers are in the stats.

I'd imagine the Traffic cops who drive the V70s and Omegas have to go through phenominal amounts of training to do what they do. Same for fire appliance drivers, it must take some doing to pilot 18t fire truck through town safely at speed.

Edited by cowellsj on Thursday 7th February 11:28

Edited by cowellsj on Thursday 7th February 11:49

[streaky]

Don't get mark69sheer started! - Streaky

[Chrisgr31]

I don't know, but I would suggest that judging from the driving standards of many ordinary drivers the accidents are probably in the main caused by sonme third party doing something stupid and getting in the way.

You'll see people slow and move to the side to allow an emergency vehicle 3 or 4 cars back easier passage, only for the muppets in between to overtake them, people stop on places the emergency vehicle then can't get past etc and that when you are another ordinary driver watching so lord knows what emergency vehicle drivers see.

I can assure you if there is a major fire in your garden and you think it is going to burn your house down then you want the fire brigade there as fast as possible and hope they take risks to get there, if your car is stranded in the outside lane of a dual carriageway/motorway you want the Police there ASAP, if theres a burglary in progress at your home you want the police there ASAP and assume they might take some risks getting there.

I suspect the increase in accidents is more related to a general fall in driving ability, and its for a similar reason that speed cameras are apparently not reducing accidents.

[N14EER]

of course they do.... and its funny how when theres a police car crash you get the entire police force there in seconds, and when you personally need them they show up taking there time with just the one car about 2 hours after.

i also hate it when cops use there lights to jump traffic. just the other day i was waiting at the traffic lights when i hear the sirens coming from behind, everyone gets out of the way and lets the copcar through. as im at the front at the lights they turn green and i go, im behind the cop car which further up the road turns off his lights and drives back at normal speed, even stopping in traffic further up the road. im sure this is not allowed.....

[cowellsj]

Chrisgr31 said:

I don't know, but I would suggest that judging from the driving standards of many ordinary drivers the accidents are probably in the main caused by sonme third party doing something stupid and getting in the way.

A mate was telling me that his mum over reacts and drives onto the pavement as soon as she sees blue lights regardless of the roadwidth or direction it's going. God knows how many pedestrians she's hit over the years...

[davidpn]

N14EER said:

of course they do.... and its funny how when theres a police car crash you get the entire police force there in seconds, and when you personally need them they show up taking there time with just the one car about 2 hours after.

i also hate it when cops use there lights to jump traffic. just the other day i was waiting at the traffic lights when i hear the sirens coming from behind, everyone gets out of the way and lets the copcar through. as im at the front at the lights they turn green and i go, im behind the cop car which further up the road turns off his lights and drives back at normal speed, even stopping in traffic further up the road. im sure this is not allowed.....

...or maybe another police car could get to that particular shout quicker and the original one was no longer required. You'll never know what went on in that car or over their radio. It's too easy to make blind judgement without the facts.

[Chrisgr31]

N14EER said:

i also hate it when cops use there lights to jump traffic. just the other day i was waiting at the traffic lights when i hear the sirens coming from behind, everyone gets out of the way and lets the copcar through. as im at the front at the lights they turn green and i go, im behind the cop car which further up the road turns off his lights and drives back at normal speed, even stopping in traffic further up the road. im sure this is not allowed.....

I very much doubt they use their lights just to jump traffic queues. What almost certainly happens is they are on there way somewhere on an emergency call and then get a message they are no longer required. Therefore they turn off their lights, and return to normal driving.

Some emergency drivers will turn off into a side road to do this in the believe they look an idiot if they are driving at speed one second with lights and siren on, and then suddenly slow down and switch off the emergency stuff!

[insanojackson]

ive been driving with blue lights for 10 years and not had a bump yet! (touch wood) but i have lost count of the near misses i have had due to members of the public doing stupid thinks like pulling out on be at junctions despite the sirens/blue lights/flashing headlamps.

i do agree though some police drivers are cack, theres a few people in my team who i wont get in the passenger seat next to. also i think more training can be given as i had a 4 week driving course 10 years ago and have had nothing at all since then!

[cowellsj]

insanojackson said:

ive been driving with blue lights for 10 years and not had a bump yet! (touch wood) but i have lost count of the near misses i have had due to members of the public doing stupid thinks like pulling out on be at junctions despite the sirens/blue lights/flashing headlamps.

i do agree though some police drivers are cack, theres a few people in my team who i wont get in the passenger seat next to. also i think more training can be given as i had a 4 week driving course 10 years ago and have had nothing at all since then!

That's not a lot of training, what sort of work do you mainly get sent out on?

I take it the force reacts to drivers who have a lot of bumps and send them on training tho.

[N14EER]

I did not mean to insult all police drivers, just that in that situation it just seems to me as if the lights were used for a different use than they should be.

I always get out of the way regardless, but its funny watching some drivers climb kerbs, get into the most awkward positions and then realise that the police car turned into another road. I once climbed a kerb as a police car was trying to weave its way through traffic, and the result was a badly kerbed alloy which was spotless otherwise.... then when i looked in mirror the police car was gone down a side road.....

[dean8718]

I say that they should have to stick to the speed limit

[paddy27]

IIRC don't these figures take into account of the tts who steal and joyride as well an accident happening when a Police car just happens to be nearby?

[Aubrey]

dean8718 said:

I say that they should have to stick to the speed limit

So when you're being attacked and you've called the police, you'd rather they drove at 30mph all the way to you, sticking to the limit? I think not!

[Lader]

N14EER said:

of course they do.... and its funny how when theres a police car crash you get the entire police force there in seconds, and when you personally need them they show up taking there time with just the one car about 2 hours after.

i also hate it when cops use there lights to jump traffic. just the other day i was waiting at the traffic lights when i hear the sirens coming from behind, everyone gets out of the way and lets the copcar through. as im at the front at the lights they turn green and i go, im behind the cop car which further up the road turns off his lights and drives back at normal speed, even stopping in traffic further up the road. im sure this is not allowed.....

That's probably because he was on a call and he got cancelled prior to his arrival. This often happens when more than one police unit goes to a call, after the first car arrives the officers may cancel any further units. This is usually because members of the public call up about problems that they could quite easily sort out themselves. Unfornunately most people that dial 999 over react and don't need police assistance at all.

With regards to Police turning up TWO HOURS after your accident I very much doubt this is the case if it was a real emergency. Police only need to attend if it is an accident with injured parties. If there are no injured parties then it's up to the drivers of the cars to sort out individually as it's a civil matter not criminal. If there's obvious evidence of an offence ie drink drive or a stolen vehicle, or dangerous driving then yes it is a police matter. But if it's something simple do you really think it proportionate for a police officer to drive there at speed using his exemptions such as red traffic lights and keep left bollards in order to turn up to your little crash. When a police driver does drive at speed he risks not only crashing and ending up in court himself, but he also risks other road users lives as well as his own.

[Aubrey]

Lader said:

That's probably because he was on a call and he got cancelled prior to his arrival. This often happens when more than one police unit goes to a call, after the first car arrives the officers may cancel any further units. This is usually because members of the public call up about problems that they could quite easily sort out themselves. Unfornunately most people that dial 999 over react and don't need police assistance at all.

With regards to Police turning up TWO HOURS after your accident I very much doubt this is the case if it was a real emergency. Police only need to attend if it is an accident with injured parties. If there are no injured parties then it's up to the drivers of the cars to sort out individually as it's a civil matter not criminal. If there's obvious evidence of an offence ie drink drive or a stolen vehicle, or dangerous driving then yes it is a police matter. But if it's something simple do you really think it proportionate for a police officer to drive there at speed using his exemptions such as red traffic lights and keep left bollards in order to turn up to your little crash. When a police driver does drive at speed he risks not only crashing and ending up in court himself, but he also risks other road users lives as well as his own.

Well said! It's often the case that whilst en route to a job it will be cancelled. Control will always specifically say 'slow down' when cancelling, blue light runs are a last resort.

[Hooli]

i'd like to see the figures spilt between traffic plod & normal plod. i've seen several cases of terrible driving over the years on blue lights & all by non-traffic plod. im sure some of them shouldnt be driving a shopping trolley let alone a car.

[Kamikaze]

As speed kills inevitably, and since all speeders are murderers, speed limit should be obeyed in every emergency, of course.

[Aubrey]

Kamikaze said:

As speed kills inevitably, and since all speeders are murderers, speed limit should be obeyed in every emergency, of course.

Well of course It's not the speed that kills, its the idiots and the sudden stop that follows!

[J16GY]

From personal experience driving ambulances on the road towards the start of the period in the article it amazes me how so many of you spend CONSTANT time MOANING about the total inability of older people on the road, youngsters on the road, incompetent people on the road in all the other articles and threads and then have the cheek to abuse the emergency services for causing so many incidents/deaths... how many more would there be without them?

I lost count of the number of accidents I had because of incompetent tw@ts on the road not getting out the way, I can guarantee that most of these incidents/deaths are caused by the general public (those ones that CANT drive of course) and NOT the highly trained drivers in the emergency services!

Moan over

[DannyT]

I seem to remember reading a while back that it used to be the case that a Police Class 1 driver had to go through circa 3 months training, and this was reduced to 3 weeks. If I am right, this might explain something!

I suspect a number of people on here have many years experience of driving vehicles of all types at all velocties (where legal of course!). However, some numpty with no knowledge, enthusiasm or interest in cars or driving is then given free range to exceed limits - which subsequently means they exceed the limits of the car or their talent.