Car Sale Situation

[Mr Scruff]

I wonder whether I could garner some informed opinion?

I sold a car during the week and after the purchasers left I realised some of the money was fake. I called the police and went to see them the next day to report the crime.

I've just had a phone call from the PC dealing with the situation who tells me that the car has been found using the ANPR system and they're trying to recover it.

Leaving aside whether they'll be able to do this or not, I'm just wondering what happens next? The people I sold it to have a receipt for the sale which I made out to them and I guess there's no way of proving that I didn't already have the fake money and just claimed these people gave it to me?

The police tell me they're going to fingerprint the fake notes so I guess they can prove that the purchasers handled them but where do I stand otherwise? Am I likely to get the car back or is it going to be a case of my word against theirs?

[Chrispy Porker]

THe car has been obtained from you by deception/arguably theft.
The 'purchaser' has committed a crime and has no right to the car ( any more than if they had stolen it without your knowledge.)
If and when the police recover it, it should be returned to you.
Are we talking a lot of counterfeit notes?

[mark69sheer]

Good response Crispy. appreciated..

[Chrispy Porker]

Just another point.
I have no idea whether the 'theft' part of the OP's insurance will cover any damage/loss he may incur.
No doubt an insurance expert will be along in a minute.

[Mr Scruff]

Thanks very much for the prompt replies.

It's not a lot of notes, just under £1000 which is just less than a third of the sale price.

The PC dealing with my case (who I have nothing but appreciation for) says it's not theft but it is fraud.

I'm just worried that the guys will say the dodgy money was nothing to do with them and the law won't be able to prove otherwise. As for my insurance, I'm not convinced they'll be able to help.

[havoc]

With fake money, I believe ignorance isn't actually a defence - if you're caught using a fake note then you:-
a) definitely haven't paid for whatever you were trying to pay for; and
b) I suspect can be prosecuted.

So in this case if there's a written, signed bill-of-sale then the purchasers, when found, either need to come up with the missing money (legal tender this time), or need to give the car back...

[Mr Scruff]

Interesting.

Although also rather frustrating as at the moment I don't have a car and I can't use the genuine money from the sale of the old one in case my car is returned to me!

[Chrispy Porker]

A thousand quid in counterfeit money is not a mistake.
He said, cynically.
This is a case of fraud.( showing my age earlier by mentioning deception)
The offender(s) have probably done the same thing to other people.
Sadly there is a lesson for anybody selling a car here.

[Mr Scruff]

I definitely think it was deliberate, from the point of them turning up 2 hours late (when the bank had closed) to wanting to do the deal in a carpark.

The signs were all there in retrospect... A lesson indeed, pay attention to those notes folks!

[Chrispy Porker]

CCTV in the car park?

Actually our force has just produced a guide for people buying and selling cars to avoid this kind of thing, how to spot ringers etc.
I know I will be accused of shutting doors once the horse has bolted but I can get hold of some if anyone wants one.
Best email me if anyone is interested.

[carrotchomper]

Mr Scruff said:

I wonder whether I could garner some informed opinion?

I sold a car during the week and after the purchasers left I realised some of the money was fake. I called the police and went to see them the next day to report the crime.

I've just had a phone call from the PC dealing with the situation who tells me that the car has been found using the ANPR system and they're trying to recover it.

Leaving aside whether they'll be able to do this or not, I'm just wondering what happens next? The people I sold it to have a receipt for the sale which I made out to them and I guess there's no way of proving that I didn't already have the fake money and just claimed these people gave it to me?

The police tell me they're going to fingerprint the fake notes so I guess they can prove that the purchasers handled them but where do I stand otherwise? Am I likely to get the car back or is it going to be a case of my word against theirs?

It can be legally seized from them as it's effectively stolen goods- You have made a criminal complaint, effectively, against them. That will be investigated (Like fingerprinting notes etc.) and if it's upheld they would have no hope of any sort of civil action against you. If it goes NFA, then perhaps it might be tussled out in the civil courts. IMHO of course!

[Jasandjules]

Mr Scruff said:

Leaving aside whether they'll be able to do this or not, I'm just wondering what happens next? The people I sold it to have a receipt for the sale which I made out to them and I guess there's no way of proving that I didn't already have the fake money and just claimed these people gave it to me?

You've got to be pretty stupid to call plod in that situation really. Not exactly common.
BUT people using fake money to purchase things, not exactly uncommon.

Did you count the money prior to writing the receipt? At the risk of sounding stupid, HOW FAKE are they? i.e. monopoly money or far better?

Don't know if plod might try the POCA route as well.....

At this point they are in breach of contract, they have not paid the contractual sum for the item. Therefore title does not pass to them, it's still your car.

[Mr Scruff]

Jasandjules said:

You've got to be pretty stupid to call plod in that situation really. Not exactly common.
BUT people using fake money to purchase things, not exactly uncommon.

Did you count the money prior to writing the receipt? At the risk of sounding stupid, HOW FAKE are they? i.e. monopoly money or far better?

Don't know if plod might try the POCA route as well.....

At this point they are in breach of contract, they have not paid the contractual sum for the item. Therefore title does not pass to them, it's still your car.

Sorry, I'm not sure what POCA means?

The notes look reasonably authentic when mixed up in a pile with other notes but on closer inspection they're obviously fake. The purchasers counted the money out in front of me, I counted some of it but most of the stuff I counted turned out to be real. After counting it I wrote out the receipt.

If the car does get recovered and returned (and I'm far from convinced that will happen, seizing cars can't be an easy task) I'm confused as to what I'll be able to do with it? I don't want the car, hence selling it in the first place, and I definitely don't want it after some scroats have abused it. However, at the same time I don't want to fob it off on some other poor sod if it comes back a bit ropey.

[Jasandjules]

POCA is the proceeds of crime act. It means the police can recover assets which they believe have been bought with the proceeds of crime. If they are smart, plod will "accidentally" arrange to nick the people just outside their house and then be able to enter the house, and search for other items/faking machines...

The car will be yours to sell again, or the people who gave you the fake notes can provide you with real money to pay the price in full, and then it will be theirs.

I suspect you'll need to give the police all the money they gave you anyways, it'll be up to the purchasers to obtain it from plod.

[paoloh]

Guys, just to sit on fence, how does op prove it was buyers who gave him the cash?
You could find your car being returned to the buyers and you losing all the counterfeit money. That would be a lose lose situation for you.

[Mr Scruff]

paoloh said:

Guys, just to sit on fence, how does op prove it was buyers who gave him the cash?
You could find your car being returned to the buyers and you losing all the counterfeit money. That would be a lose lose situation for you.

I was thinking that but the PC dealing with the case has, apparently, had the notes fingerprinted.

I assume that would prove they handled the notes would it not? From there I don't see how they could maintain innocence? At best they could claim they didn't know the notes were fake but from what people have told me that makes no difference?

[paoloh]

Mr Scruff said:

paoloh said:

Guys, just to sit on fence, how does op prove it was buyers who gave him the cash?
You could find your car being returned to the buyers and you losing all the counterfeit money. That would be a lose lose situation for you.

I was thinking that but the PC dealing with the case has, apparently, had the notes fingerprinted.

I assume that would prove they handled the notes would it not? From there I don't see how they could maintain innocence? At best they could claim they didn't know the notes were fake but from what people have told me that makes no difference?

You'd be amazed. Fingers prints don't always show up. As you've already involved plod, you will lose the dud cash. I really hope you get car back. What have plod said about the straight cash? Do you get to keep it?

[Jasandjules]

paoloh said:

Guys, just to sit on fence, how does op prove it was buyers who gave him the cash?
You could find your car being returned to the buyers and you losing all the counterfeit money. That would be a lose lose situation for you.

Well, if he happens to have 3k in cash, and a receipt from sellers for 3k or so..... It's a bit of a coincidence otherwise. He can also show plod (if necessary, but I don't think it will be) his bank statements which show he hasn't paid in 1k of their money and replaced it with fake stuff?!?!

Like I said, it would be a bit of a fool who tried this sort of trick, who ever heard of such a fraud? It's a bit long winded really, far easier to go and purchase a car from someone else with fake cash, I'd have said.....

[Mr Scruff]

I've not offered to give them the straight cash and they've not asked.

Ultimately I'm without a car at the moment, I was going to use the proceeds from the sale to buy something new. I'll hold off buying anything for a week or so as I've managed to borrow a car but I have no desire to be any more out of pocket than I already am.

I'm having to look at it from a positive perspective, at least SOME of the cash was real. I've no qualms about having given up the fake notes; morally I'd be just as bad as the scroats who screwed me over if I passed them on and I'm not going to abandon my principles just because of them.

I'm assuming the worst case scenario - I've lost the car and only have 2/3rds of the agreed sale price. It sucks but that's life. If the car is returned so much the better and kudos to the police for sorting it out but it would be foolish to bank on this! I can keep the borrowed car I've got for another week, after which I'll call the police station and advise them that I'm spending the rest of the money.

I don't think anyone can begrudge me that!

Lol, suddenly this has turned from "Speed, Plod & the Law" into "Zen and the Art of Car Ownership"!

[paoloh]

Jasandjules said:

paoloh said:

Guys, just to sit on fence, how does op prove it was buyers who gave him the cash?
You could find your car being returned to the buyers and you losing all the counterfeit money. That would be a lose lose situation for you.

Well, if he happens to have 3k in cash, and a receipt from sellers for 3k or so..... It's a bit of a coincidence otherwise. He can also show plod (if necessary, but I don't think it will be) his bank statements which show he hasn't paid in 1k of their money and replaced it with fake stuff?!?!

Like I said, it would be a bit of a fool who tried this sort of trick, who ever heard of such a fraud? It's a bit long winded really, far easier to go and purchase a car from someone else with fake cash, I'd have said.....

Coincidences don't prove guilt!!