Offence not to carry driving documents?

[timskipper]

I was watching one of those Police Stop! Camera Action On Patrol type programmes that seem to perpetuate the Sky channels and was interested to hear one of the traffic Police telling some scrote they had stopped that "it is an offence not to carry your documents".

That's not right is it?

[^Slider^]

It is an offence not to produce your D/L, insurance and MOT test certificate when required to do so by a police officer.

[timskipper]

That's not what I asked though is it.

[Boosted LS1]

^ But surely when stopped you'd be given a producer to take your documents to a polics station? Would that nullify any offence?

[splitter / judas]

Slider is correct. They law doesn't state you must carry your driving documents but does state it is an offence not to produce them forthwith on request.

[^Slider^]

Yes it is,

If you dont carry them then you cannot produce them at the roadside when stopped by BiB.

A producer is a defence. (you can produce them at the police station within 7 days).

You dont have to be given a prodcer, you can also produce them at court.

Edited by ^Slider^ on Monday 25th February 11:43

[killsta]

The offence is failure to produce licence/insurance to a Constable upon request. A Constable can request to see a drivers documents at any time, for no reason whatsoever.

But given that it is unreasonable to expect ALL drivers to carry ALL documents with them 24/7, the HORT/1 was introduced to give the driver 7 days to produce. If you don't produce you get summonsed for the original offence of failing to produce.

However, the original offence still occurs despite having HORT/1s available.

EDIT: Bugger, beaten to it!

Edited by killsta on Monday 25th February 11:45

[tvrgit]

Just to clarify:

Section 164 of The Road Traffic Act said:

Power of constables to require production of driving licence and in certain cases statement of date of birth

(1) Any of the following persons—
(a) a person driving a motor vehicle on a road,
(b) a person whom a constable has reasonable cause to believe to have been the driver of a motor vehicle at a time when an accident occurred owing to its presence on a road,
(c) a person whom a constable has reasonable cause to believe to have committed an offence in relation to the use of a motor vehicle on a road, or
(d) a person—
(i) who supervises the holder of a provisional licence while the holder is driving a motor vehicle on a road, or
(ii) whom a constable has reasonable cause to believe was supervising the holder of a provisional licence while driving, at a time when an accident occurred owing to the presence of the vehicle on a road or at a time when an offence is suspected of having been committed by the holder of the provisional licence in relation to the use of the vehicle on a road,
must, on being so required by a constable, produce his licence for examination, so as to enable the constable to ascertain the name and address of the holder of the licence, the date of issue, and the authority by which it was issued.

Subsection 6 said:

If a person required under the preceding provisions of this section to produce a licence or state his date of birth to a constable fails to do so he is, subject to subsections (7) and (8) below, guilty of an offence.

So by not producing documents, the offence is automatically committed.

but then subsection 7 said:

Subsection (6) above does not apply where a person required on any occasion under the preceding provisions of this section to produce a licence—
(a) produces on that occasion a current receipt for the licence issued under section 56 of the [1988 c. 53.] Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and, if required to do so, produces the licence in person immediately on its return at a police station that was specified on that occasion, or
(b) within seven days after that occasion produces such a receipt in person at a police station that was specified by him on that occasion and, if required to do so, produces the licence in person immediately on its return at that police station.

So if your licence has been sent away to have a "judge smudge" recorded, you can do this. For the rest of us,

subsection 8 said:

In proceedings against any person for the offence of failing to produce a licence it shall be a defence for him to show that—
(a) within seven days after the production of his licence was required he produced it in person at a police station that was specified by him at the time its production was required, or
(b) he produced it in person there as soon as was reasonably practicable, or
(c) it was not reasonably practicable for him to produce it there before the day on which the proceedings were commenced

So technically, you commit an offemnce but your defence is that you produced with 7 days so you are automatically "let off".

[Jasandjules]

I may have misread that, but it only states driving licence and date of birth? No mention of insurance or MOT?

[tvrgit]

Section 165 is almost identical and deals with insurance and MOT.

Section 165 said:

Power of constables to obtain names and addresses of drivers and others, and to require production of evidence of insurance or security and test certificates
(1) Any of the following persons—
(a) a person driving a motor vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) on a road, or
(b) a person whom a constable has reasonable cause to believe to have been the driver of a motor vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) at a time when an accident occurred owing to its presence on a road, or
(c) a person whom a constable has reasonable cause to believe to have committed an offence in relation to the use on a road of a motor vehicle (other than an invalid carriage),
must, on being so required by a constable, give his name and address and the name and address of the owner of the vehicle and produce the following documents for examination.
(2) Those documents are—
(a) the relevant certificate of insurance or certificate of security (within the meaning of Part VI of this Act), or such other evidence that the vehicle is not or was not being driven in contravention of section 143 of this Act as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State,
(b) in relation to a vehicle to which section 47 of this Act applies, a test certificate issued in respect of the vehicle as mentioned in subsection (1) of that section, and
(c) in relation to a goods vehicle the use of which on a road without a plating certificate or goods vehicle test certificate is an offence under section 53(1) or (2) of this Act, any such certificate issued in respect of that vehicle or any trailer drawn by it.
(3) Subject to subsection (4) below, a person who fails to comply with a requirement under subsection (1) above is guilty of an offence.
(4) A person shall not be convicted of an offence under subsection (1) above by reason only of failure to produce any certificate or other evidence to a constable if in proceedings against him for the offence he shows that—
(a) within seven days after the date on which the production of the certificate or other evidence was required it was produced at a police station that was specified by him at the time when its production was required, or
(b) it was produced there as soon as was reasonably practicable, or
(c) it was not reasonably practicable for it to be produced there before the day on which the proceedings were commenced

Edited by tvrgit on Monday 25th February 12:20

[Dogwatch]

But it says on the test certificate (from memory) that it is not evidence of a current MOT, only the computer record is.

Therefore you cannot prove your vehicle has a current MOT.

[Jasandjules]

tvrgit said:

Section 165 is almost identical and deals with insurance and MOT.

Fair enough.

The only reason I don't carry these documents is because if some s***e steals the car and all the log book and insurance and MOT are sat in the car.............

[tvrgit]

Jasandjules said:

tvrgit said:

Section 165 is almost identical and deals with insurance and MOT.

Fair enough.

The only reason I don't carry these documents is because if some s***e steals the car and all the log book and insurance and MOT are sat in the car.............

Exactly! Me too. Never have. Never will.