70 mph signs on dual carriageway
Discussion
On the A80 between Old Inns and Castlecary "70" signs have recently appeared. Now the road is a NCL dual carrigeway, so why "70" instead of the normal black & white NSL signs? At Old Inns you revert back to NSL signs.
I've also noticed them on the Edinburgh City Bypass, but that road has special rules, similar to a motorway.
I've also noticed them on the Edinburgh City Bypass, but that road has special rules, similar to a motorway.
I asked around about this the last time it was raised here. The most sensible answer I got from people who should know, is that under Euro rules, motorways are derestricted unless a lower limit applies. If a speed limit DOES apply to a motorway, then it has to be signed with numbers rather than an NSL sign.
Each EU state sets its own meaning of "National Speed Limit" for non-motorway routes, so the NSL signs is still used on dual carriageways.
Each EU state sets its own meaning of "National Speed Limit" for non-motorway routes, so the NSL signs is still used on dual carriageways.
AFAIK, 70mph signs are used on dual carriageways in Scotland as an alternative to NSL signs.
The sign is not an indication that vehicles which would ordinarily be restricted to lower speeds (ie non car derived vans, HGVs, vehicles towing caravans, etc) can drive at [higher] speeds up to 70mph.
The sign is not an indication that vehicles which would ordinarily be restricted to lower speeds (ie non car derived vans, HGVs, vehicles towing caravans, etc) can drive at [higher] speeds up to 70mph.
I've seen a few references to there being 70 signs in Scotland, rather than NSL. It did seem odd, though, to change some, but leave the others right next to them.
I just read, in Worcestershire they are signing 70 because folk don't know what the NSL sign means, or is.
I just read, in Worcestershire they are signing 70 because folk don't know what the NSL sign means, or is.
Edited by Red Kite on Sunday 2nd November 19:31
Red Kite said:
I think it means that certain larger vehicles can go faster than they could in a NSL area. e,g smaller caravans can do 70 instead of just 60. It would make sense if its a location that gets a build up of traffic.
Might be wrong, though.
The National Speed Limit always applies to all classes of vehicles, regardless of what the posted limit is. I had to check this out before introducing a temporary speed limit - I wondered if reducing the speed limit from NSL to 50 on a single carriageway meant that the largest HGVs could now do 50 rather than their NSL of 40. It doesn't!Might be wrong, though.
tvrgit said:
Red Kite said:
I think it means that certain larger vehicles can go faster than they could in a NSL area. e,g smaller caravans can do 70 instead of just 60. It would make sense if its a location that gets a build up of traffic.
Might be wrong, though.
The National Speed Limit always applies to all classes of vehicles, regardless of what the posted limit is. I had to check this out before introducing a temporary speed limit - I wondered if reducing the speed limit from NSL to 50 on a single carriageway meant that the largest HGVs could now do 50 rather than their NSL of 40. It doesn't!Might be wrong, though.
Red Kite said:
tvrgit said:
Red Kite said:
I think it means that certain larger vehicles can go faster than they could in a NSL area. e,g smaller caravans can do 70 instead of just 60. It would make sense if its a location that gets a build up of traffic.
Might be wrong, though.
The National Speed Limit always applies to all classes of vehicles, regardless of what the posted limit is. I had to check this out before introducing a temporary speed limit - I wondered if reducing the speed limit from NSL to 50 on a single carriageway meant that the largest HGVs could now do 50 rather than their NSL of 40. It doesn't!Might be wrong, though.
erdnase said:
We have an odd dual-carriageway here in Scotland. It's NSL signed with 2 lanes each direction, divided by a central barrier - but it has "no farm machinery or < 50cc" signage, making it basically a motorway. Odd!
The gtrunk roads authority improved 1 or 2 routes in the 90s to "near motorway standard" as they called it. If they make them motorways, the junction layouts wouldn't comply with the different design standards, and they would have to ban learners, pedestrians etc, and possibly provide a parallel route for local accesses. So they didn't.I still maintain, as on earlier threads, that these 70 signs are illegal, and are erected by muppets in councils who don't know the law.
That 70 signs were inappropriate and illegal in the cases being discussed was also confirmed by Roads Policy Unit in Whitehall.
If there is so much confusion in the SP&L forum of a website populated, in the main, by motorists actually interested in the business of driving, one shudders to think what confusion it causes in the minds of Mr & Mrs Molehusband out there.
Being cynical, one might wonder whether in North Wales that is what they like, i.e. confusion in the mind of the driver regarding the limit in force?
That 70 signs were inappropriate and illegal in the cases being discussed was also confirmed by Roads Policy Unit in Whitehall.
If there is so much confusion in the SP&L forum of a website populated, in the main, by motorists actually interested in the business of driving, one shudders to think what confusion it causes in the minds of Mr & Mrs Molehusband out there.
Being cynical, one might wonder whether in North Wales that is what they like, i.e. confusion in the mind of the driver regarding the limit in force?
Right, a bit of clarification (now that I've checked!)
Motorways were originally designated under the Special Roads Act 1949, which was merged in with the Highways Act 1959, and later the Highways Act 1980.
The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 define the speed limits for various types of vehicles. Motorways are therefore NOT subject to the National Speed Limit (for cars) - they have this separate legislation.
That means that motorways should be signed as "70" not "NSL" because the "NSL" sign exists under different legislation.
Tin foil hats back in the box lads!
Motorways were originally designated under the Special Roads Act 1949, which was merged in with the Highways Act 1959, and later the Highways Act 1980.
The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 define the speed limits for various types of vehicles. Motorways are therefore NOT subject to the National Speed Limit (for cars) - they have this separate legislation.
That means that motorways should be signed as "70" not "NSL" because the "NSL" sign exists under different legislation.
Tin foil hats back in the box lads!
tvrgit said:
Right, a bit of clarification (now that I've checked!)
Motorways were originally designated under the Special Roads Act 1949, which was merged in with the Highways Act 1959, and later the Highways Act 1980.
The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 define the speed limits for various types of vehicles. Motorways are therefore NOT subject to the National Speed Limit (for cars) - they have this separate legislation.
That means that motorways should be signed as "70" not "NSL" because the "NSL" sign exists under different legislation.
Tin foil hats back in the box lads!
That's interesting. I wonder if certain A roads (not Axx(M)) roads could be somehow classified as motorways? Motorways were originally designated under the Special Roads Act 1949, which was merged in with the Highways Act 1959, and later the Highways Act 1980.
The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 define the speed limits for various types of vehicles. Motorways are therefore NOT subject to the National Speed Limit (for cars) - they have this separate legislation.
That means that motorways should be signed as "70" not "NSL" because the "NSL" sign exists under different legislation.
Tin foil hats back in the box lads!
The A55 refered to earlier used to have the old motorway prohibition signs at the start of the Colwyn Bay bypass - did that somehow make it legally a motorway?
Dwight VanDriver said:
But is the A80 a Motorway ?
dvd
It isn't at the moment, but it is about to be improved to full motorway and redesignated M80. I would guess that the Order redesignating it as a "special road" might already have been made, necessitating the change in signing. I don't know for sure though! dvd
Deva Link said:
tvrgit said:
Right, a bit of clarification (now that I've checked!)
Motorways were originally designated under the Special Roads Act 1949, which was merged in with the Highways Act 1959, and later the Highways Act 1980.
The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 define the speed limits for various types of vehicles. Motorways are therefore NOT subject to the National Speed Limit (for cars) - they have this separate legislation.
That means that motorways should be signed as "70" not "NSL" because the "NSL" sign exists under different legislation.
Tin foil hats back in the box lads!
That's interesting. I wonder if certain A roads (not Axx(M)) roads could be somehow classified as motorways? Motorways were originally designated under the Special Roads Act 1949, which was merged in with the Highways Act 1959, and later the Highways Act 1980.
The Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974 define the speed limits for various types of vehicles. Motorways are therefore NOT subject to the National Speed Limit (for cars) - they have this separate legislation.
That means that motorways should be signed as "70" not "NSL" because the "NSL" sign exists under different legislation.
Tin foil hats back in the box lads!
The A55 refered to earlier used to have the old motorway prohibition signs at the start of the Colwyn Bay bypass - did that somehow make it legally a motorway?
The Aberdeen bypass opened last year, so heading north from Dundee on the A90 the signage is NSL.
At Stonehaven to get on the bypass you tune off the A90, go around a roundabout and join the bypass, which is also the A90, the old road from Stonehaven to Aberdeen which was dual carriageway and NSL was the continuation of the A90, it's now the A92, so Dundee to north of Aberdeen via the bypass is all A90.
Anyway as I said it opened last year with an NSL sign, it has recently been replaced with 70, which as far as I can see makes no difference, so is there any difference, wasn't clear in previous posts.
If as someone said in Scotland it should be 70 not NSL, there are an awful lot of NSL signs, and that being the case, what muppet put it up on a new road instead of 70?
At Stonehaven to get on the bypass you tune off the A90, go around a roundabout and join the bypass, which is also the A90, the old road from Stonehaven to Aberdeen which was dual carriageway and NSL was the continuation of the A90, it's now the A92, so Dundee to north of Aberdeen via the bypass is all A90.
Anyway as I said it opened last year with an NSL sign, it has recently been replaced with 70, which as far as I can see makes no difference, so is there any difference, wasn't clear in previous posts.
If as someone said in Scotland it should be 70 not NSL, there are an awful lot of NSL signs, and that being the case, what muppet put it up on a new road instead of 70?
Edited by Vipers on Thursday 27th February 16:45
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