Camera Buddies

[misternomer]

Thought I'd let a few of you on to a wheeze. I've never been caught by a camera (though I'm on my 3rd set of greenstuffs in 18 months:-)

But I have a pal who's not so lucky. He got to 9 points recently and asked me for help. I arranged for Mike to a have a little chat with another mate of mine in California who's an Autocross driver and who I always enjoyed driving like an idiot with when I lived out there.

The long and the short of it is that they have now started to introduce cameras in San Francisco (contracted out to Lockheed Martin!) Dean arranged to swap his US tickets with Mike on the understanding that Mike could to likewise when caught on GATSO. It was also agreed that if either police force pressed the matter further than a summary check of the facts and actually tried to fine or prosecute the real driver would drop the matter and fess up "Sorry your honour. My records indicate that I *was* driving that day after all!"

Mike named Dean on his NIP and gave his address in California. This was 6 months ago. Neither of them have heard anything further.

I have another mate that tried this. He said that one of 3 friends from Zimbabwe were driving on that day and gave a correct address for one of them. The court asked for the flight number they came in on and that was the end of the matter.

So next time the incriminating photo goes plop on the doormat. Try to remember which one of your Iraqi mates was behind the wheel;-)








>>> Edited by misternomer on Sunday 4th January 00:11

[misternomer]

Has anyone else tried this and had good experiences?

[Cooperman]

Yes, I have a friend who works in the F1 industry. He was on 9 points and when the next NIP arrived he named an Italian friend who lives in Milan and who regularly visits the UK.
Plod wrote back and asked for the flight number, and details of where the driver had stayed whilst in the UK. My buddy replied by letter that he had supplied the information required under the law and that they were the police, not him and that they must investigate further if the mood so took them. He heard nothing more.
Of course, if you don't sign the NIP as well it helps even more!

[misternomer]

That's interesting Cooperman.

That was exactly the same response that my mate got. I think this is definitely the way forward!!

[Apache]

Cooperman said:

My buddy replied by letter that he had supplied the information required under the law and that they were the police, not him and that they must investigate further if the mood so took them.

I love that one! innocent till proven guilty. Ok, admit you were guilty, Damn!. Ok, prove that you're not guilty, oh that's our job isn't it, we'll be right back............

>> Edited by Apache on Monday 12th January 09:43

[zcacogp]

I'm told that they occasionally push the matter if it is a European driver named as being at the wheel (anyone know whether any other european countries have a "Points" system similar to ours?) but rarely do anything more if it is someone outside the EU.

Trouble is that it is intentionally passing false information (which you know is false) to the powers that be. And I would have thought that if you are found out, the penalties will be steep. Unlikely, but it is actually lying as opposed to exploiting a loophole.


Oli.

[tvrslag]

Friend of mine did this about three years ago. He was dropping off a brazilian work colleague at the airport and got zapped by a camera, when he received the NIP he replied it was the brazilian guy driving his car as he had been drinking that day. Phonto evidence was inconclusive (apparently) and he got off. We Also have An australian guy in our office who takes people speeding offences when they use his company car (if they get snapped its not a deliberate speeding attempt). So far the powers that be have tried to give him 12 points unsuccessfully.

[misternomer]

Hi all - a quick update on this post.

A colleague of mine who is French was driving my A8 car (with me in it) through Borehamwood about 9 months ago. He was snapped and I got the NIP.

I gave his correct address in Paris to plod. Plod wrote back that he wanted:

1: Flight number
2: Dates of his stay in the UK
3: Evidence that he was insured to drive the vehicle.

I wrote back stating that I had complied with s172 by giving the correct identification for the driver. I did not have any further contact details in my possesion and was not aware of his travel arrangements.

The last of these requirements is the tricky one so listen up as I've twice given the same response succesfully:

It is an offence to knowingly allow your vehicle to be driven without a valid certificate of insurance in force. In both instances I replied that I had previously agreed with the owner in writing that they were authorised to use my vehicle only on the express basis that they provided their own third party insurance cover.

I've never heard anything further after this response and the foreign driver has never been contacted.

Last time I looked (last year) there was still no reciprocity between UK and EU police forces. Which means that there's no way the UK police can check driver details and endorse a foreign national's license. A friend of mine use to drive in London all the time (circa 1999) with French plates knowing that he could speed and use bus lanes with utter impunity.

[Zod]

I cannot believe that you are stupid enough to post this when you have made yourself clearly identifiable from your profile.

[Fats25]

What has he done wrong?

He was not driving, and as he said, he had it in writing that the other guy could only use the car providing they had their own 3rd party insurance. This was obviously all done........

Why would he be worried about being identified?

[BigBob]

Zod said:

I cannot believe that you are stupid enough to post this when you have made yourself clearly identifiable from your profile.

Why not - if I'm reading his post correctly, and I believe I am, he has done nothing wrong. He states clearly in the opening remarks that a colleague was driving his car - nought illegal in that.

[purpleheadedcerb]

misternomer said:

But I have a pal who's not so lucky. He got to 9 points recently and asked me for help. I arranged for Mike to a have a little chat with another mate of mine in California who's an Autocross driver and who I always enjoyed driving like an idiot with when I lived out there.

Sounds to me like conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. But hey, it's only a potential life sentence so why would anyone publish information like that in a public forum??!!




>> Edited by purpleheadedcerb on Thursday 23 March 12:35

[Cooperman]

Two further thoughts on this:

1. Make sure that the person named will be happy to confirm that they were driving at the time and place.
2. Before naming them ensure that the photograph does not clearly identify someone else as the driver, like trhe person filling in the NiP. We all make mistakes, so get the photo first, that way you can be sure that the person named on the NiP is the driver, or that the photo can't be used for I/D purposes.

You do not have to do any more than give the name and address of the driver at the time of the alleged ofence. It's for the Police to follow it up, or not, as they may wish. However, there was a case when a father, apparently knowing that one of his daughters was driving his car, named a guy in France with whom he had done some business. He neglected to ensure that his French contact knew of this and the UK Police asked their French counterparts to investigate, only to find that the Frenchman was in hospital in France at the time. The result was that the keeper who named the Frenchman got 4 months inside for 'Perversion of the course......'. Interesting that you get 4 months inside for this, but only get community service if you have a lot of 'previous' and commit an assault on a Police Officer.

[SS2.]

Cooperman said:

[...] Interesting that you get 4 months inside for this [...]

Or a hefty fine:

A cautionary tale said:

The speeding lie that cost £11,000. Clarissa Satchell, Manchester Evening News. A professional couple are £11,000 out of pocket after they tried to dodge two £60 speeding fines by inventing a driver from Bulgaria to fool police. The wife even flew to Bulgaria to send a postcard to her husband from the phantom driver. Police exposed the "elaborate" web of lies of chartered surveyors Stewart and Cathryn Bromley, who dreamed up the Bulgarian in a complex scam to escape paying the fines. They claimed the man - named Konstantin Koscov - had been driving the family Mercedes when it was twice caught on camera breaking the speed limit near their home in Hyde. As police grew suspicious, 42-year-old Mrs Bromley travelled the 1,400 miles to Bulgaria to send the faked postcard from the fictitious Mr Koscov to back up the story. But investigating officer Pc Mark Beales was unconvinced and contacted Interpol and the British embassy in Sofia in an attempt to track down the driver. Guilty The Bromleys eventually admitted making up the story after investigators said they could find no trace of Mr Koscov. Yesterday, the couple, from Moss Lane, Broadbottom, were ordered to pay a total of £9,200 in fines and £1,900 in costs after they pleaded guilty to two counts of perverting the course of justice. Sentencing them at Manchester Crown Court, Judge Bernard Lever said: "The best place to hit people like these is in their pockets. Had they not pleaded guilty, I would have almost certainly sent them to prison." The Bromleys' Mercedes was twice clocked speeding by a fixed speed camera in Dukinfield Road, Hyde, in January. Instead of paying the two £60 fines, Mr Bromley, 43, wrote on his Notice of Intended Prosecution that neither he nor his wife was driving the car at the time. Employee He said the driver was Konstantin Koscov, a former employee who had returned to his home in Bulgaria. Mr Bromley was contacted by Pc Beales and soon after that he wrote to the officer saying he had received a postcard from Mr Koscov. The postcard - which featured scenes from Bulgaria on the front - said: "Many thanks for the opportunity to work in your office. I enjoyed the experience and would gladly return the favor [sic] unfortunately my car is no where as good as yours but it will get you about! "Many thanks again and look forward to my next trip. Regards Konstantin Koscov." Speaking after the case, Pc Beales said: "We became suspicious because they were being too helpful providing this postcard to corroborate the story. The language on the postcard didn't ring true." It was after making further inquiries in Bulgaria that Pc Beales discovered his suspicions about the existence of Mr Koscov were correct. His tenacity in pursuing the case was praised by Judge Lever. Jail Mr Bromley, who runs Bromley Associates surveyors in Hyde, was ordered to pay a £7,500 fine and £700 costs, while Mrs Bromley was ordered to pay a £1,700 fine and £1,200 costs as well as all defence costs. If the fines are not paid within 28 days Mr Bromley faces a six-month jail term and Mrs Bromley a 40-day jail term. Pc Beales said: "It was a very elaborate and dishonest attempt to escape paying a speeding fine. I think the lie went so far that they almost believed it themselves. "They became so embroiled in it that it got out of control." The Bromleys, who have a young son, live in a two-storey brick villa on a quiet country lane. Mrs Bromley refused to comment when approached by the M.E.N.

[Deltafox]

purpleheadedcerb said:

Sounds to me like conspiracy to pervert the course of justice

Not possible in this case because theres no such thing as "justice" when dealing with the scam as its just a scam.
Justice need not apply.

[Cooperman]

SS2. said:

Cooperman said: [...] Interesting that you get 4 months inside for this [...] Or a hefty fine: A cautionary tale said: The speeding lie that cost £11,000. Clarissa Satchell, Manchester Evening News. A professional couple are £11,000 out of pocket after they tried to dodge two £60 speeding fines by inventing a driver from Bulgaria to fool police. The wife even flew to Bulgaria to send a postcard to her husband from the phantom driver. Police exposed the "elaborate" web of lies of chartered surveyors Stewart and Cathryn Bromley, who dreamed up the Bulgarian in a complex scam to escape paying the fines. They claimed the man - named Konstantin Koscov - had been driving the family Mercedes when it was twice caught on camera breaking the speed limit near their home in Hyde. As police grew suspicious, 42-year-old Mrs Bromley travelled the 1,400 miles to Bulgaria to send the faked postcard from the fictitious Mr Koscov to back up the story. But investigating officer Pc Mark Beales was unconvinced and contacted Interpol and the British embassy in Sofia in an attempt to track down the driver. Guilty The Bromleys eventually admitted making up the story after investigators said they could find no trace of Mr Koscov. Yesterday, the couple, from Moss Lane, Broadbottom, were ordered to pay a total of £9,200 in fines and £1,900 in costs after they pleaded guilty to two counts of perverting the course of justice. Sentencing them at Manchester Crown Court, Judge Bernard Lever said: "The best place to hit people like these is in their pockets. Had they not pleaded guilty, I would have almost certainly sent them to prison." The Bromleys' Mercedes was twice clocked speeding by a fixed speed camera in Dukinfield Road, Hyde, in January. Instead of paying the two £60 fines, Mr Bromley, 43, wrote on his Notice of Intended Prosecution that neither he nor his wife was driving the car at the time. Employee He said the driver was Konstantin Koscov, a former employee who had returned to his home in Bulgaria. Mr Bromley was contacted by Pc Beales and soon after that he wrote to the officer saying he had received a postcard from Mr Koscov. The postcard - which featured scenes from Bulgaria on the front - said: "Many thanks for the opportunity to work in your office. I enjoyed the experience and would gladly return the favor [sic] unfortunately my car is no where as good as yours but it will get you about! "Many thanks again and look forward to my next trip. Regards Konstantin Koscov." Speaking after the case, Pc Beales said: "We became suspicious because they were being too helpful providing this postcard to corroborate the story. The language on the postcard didn't ring true." It was after making further inquiries in Bulgaria that Pc Beales discovered his suspicions about the existence of Mr Koscov were correct. His tenacity in pursuing the case was praised by Judge Lever. Jail Mr Bromley, who runs Bromley Associates surveyors in Hyde, was ordered to pay a £7,500 fine and £700 costs, while Mrs Bromley was ordered to pay a £1,700 fine and £1,200 costs as well as all defence costs. If the fines are not paid within 28 days Mr Bromley faces a six-month jail term and Mrs Bromley a 40-day jail term. Pc Beales said: "It was a very elaborate and dishonest attempt to escape paying a speeding fine. I think the lie went so far that they almost believed it themselves. "They became so embroiled in it that it got out of control." The Bromleys, who have a young son, live in a two-storey brick villa on a quiet country lane. Mrs Bromley refused to comment when approached by the M.E.N.

It's comforting to know that our law enforcement agencies have got their priorities so right inasmuchas they'll pursue alleged speeding offenders across Europe and beyond, but, in one force at least, they won't even respond to reported crimes involving burglary and common assault.

[CombeMarshal]

My God, someones been digging up old threads!!

[justinp1]

Cooperman said:

SS2. said: Cooperman said: [...] Interesting that you get 4 months inside for this [...] Or a hefty fine: A cautionary tale said: The speeding lie that cost £11,000. Clarissa Satchell, Manchester Evening News. A professional couple are £11,000 out of pocket after they tried to dodge two £60 speeding fines by inventing a driver from Bulgaria to fool police. The wife even flew to Bulgaria to send a postcard to her husband from the phantom driver. Police exposed the "elaborate" web of lies of chartered surveyors Stewart and Cathryn Bromley, who dreamed up the Bulgarian in a complex scam to escape paying the fines. They claimed the man - named Konstantin Koscov - had been driving the family Mercedes when it was twice caught on camera breaking the speed limit near their home in Hyde. As police grew suspicious, 42-year-old Mrs Bromley travelled the 1,400 miles to Bulgaria to send the faked postcard from the fictitious Mr Koscov to back up the story. But investigating officer Pc Mark Beales was unconvinced and contacted Interpol and the British embassy in Sofia in an attempt to track down the driver. Guilty The Bromleys eventually admitted making up the story after investigators said they could find no trace of Mr Koscov. Yesterday, the couple, from Moss Lane, Broadbottom, were ordered to pay a total of £9,200 in fines and £1,900 in costs after they pleaded guilty to two counts of perverting the course of justice. Sentencing them at Manchester Crown Court, Judge Bernard Lever said: "The best place to hit people like these is in their pockets. Had they not pleaded guilty, I would have almost certainly sent them to prison." The Bromleys' Mercedes was twice clocked speeding by a fixed speed camera in Dukinfield Road, Hyde, in January. Instead of paying the two £60 fines, Mr Bromley, 43, wrote on his Notice of Intended Prosecution that neither he nor his wife was driving the car at the time. Employee He said the driver was Konstantin Koscov, a former employee who had returned to his home in Bulgaria. Mr Bromley was contacted by Pc Beales and soon after that he wrote to the officer saying he had received a postcard from Mr Koscov. The postcard - which featured scenes from Bulgaria on the front - said: "Many thanks for the opportunity to work in your office. I enjoyed the experience and would gladly return the favor [sic] unfortunately my car is no where as good as yours but it will get you about! "Many thanks again and look forward to my next trip. Regards Konstantin Koscov." Speaking after the case, Pc Beales said: "We became suspicious because they were being too helpful providing this postcard to corroborate the story. The language on the postcard didn't ring true." It was after making further inquiries in Bulgaria that Pc Beales discovered his suspicions about the existence of Mr Koscov were correct. His tenacity in pursuing the case was praised by Judge Lever. Jail Mr Bromley, who runs Bromley Associates surveyors in Hyde, was ordered to pay a £7,500 fine and £700 costs, while Mrs Bromley was ordered to pay a £1,700 fine and £1,200 costs as well as all defence costs. If the fines are not paid within 28 days Mr Bromley faces a six-month jail term and Mrs Bromley a 40-day jail term. Pc Beales said: "It was a very elaborate and dishonest attempt to escape paying a speeding fine. I think the lie went so far that they almost believed it themselves. "They became so embroiled in it that it got out of control." The Bromleys, who have a young son, live in a two-storey brick villa on a quiet country lane. Mrs Bromley refused to comment when approached by the M.E.N. It's comforting to know that our law enforcement agencies have got their priorities so right inasmuchas they'll pursue alleged speeding offenders across Europe and beyond, but, in one force at least, they won't even respond to reported crimes involving burglary and common assault.

I agree! When my house got burgled and smashed up, I was politely told that the chances of ever seeing thousands of pounds of stuff was very slim.

Yet... if someone is trying to dodge £120 of fines, this is the key to corroborate with law enforcement agencies abroad, spend hours upon hours gathering eveidence and bring a Crown Court case.

I wonder if the burglar would have had to pay my costs, and £9000 of fines as well, even *if* they had caught him.

[Cooperman]

To continue the rant, I would bet that if a burglar was named by a witness and then the Old Bill were told that the burglar had gone to live in Bulgaria, the Old Bill would not even bother to call the Bulgarian Police. They would just 'file' details of the offence.
However, drive a few miles over some unrealistic speed limit and you get the 'full Monty' in terms of police efforts to 'make an example' of the culprits. It's so spiteful.
Cynical, Moi? Yes, I'm afraid so.
I, for one, am not blaming the average police officer. They do their very best but, in the end, they have to follow the orders and targets of their guv'nors, who seem to have 'lost the plot' in terms of the sort of policing the average Britisher wants. The courts, too, have lost touch with the sort of punishments we want to see for real crimes.
To simplify this, either the Police Service have allowed themselves to become obsessed with speed limit compliance to the detriment of real road safety and matters of a more criminal nature, or they have allowed themselves to become perceived as so being. Either way, it ain't good for our society. It's certainly making day-to-day driving a bloody misery for many professional drivers and all for no good reason.

[misternomer]

Zod said:

I cannot believe that you are stupid enough to post this when you have made yourself clearly identifiable from your profile.

Hang on there a 'mo. I didn't actually admit to any kind of offence in either of my posts. We spotted though!