Leasehold Flat Alterations Clause ... baffled...

[Scarletpimpofnel]

Below is the alterations clause from the master lease for my flat.

It's quite clear that I cannot in any way change or damage ("maim"!) anything structural or create new wall openings etc.

What I am unclear about is whether I can do the following WITHOUT seeking landlord permission:

1 - Add fitted wardrobes (that are screwed into the plasterboard walls/ceilings and floors).

2 - Add an over bath shower (the existing tap has a shower hose take off point so no need for plumbing but I'd need to add a shower door, high level shower rail and board around the bath to make it water tight).

3 - Move an electric radiator from behind a bed to an empty space 2 metres away (using suitable cable and surface mount ducting)

I want to avoid seeking landlord permission "just in case" because they want drawings for each change from an architect and charge fees which soon mount up.

Any thoughts on whether the changes I have outlined can just be done without contravening the lease clause below? Many thanks.

[chewie2606]

Just my thoughts, not an expert in law, contracts, leases, landlords etc etc

1) Adding fitted wardrobes would change the "plan design" of the room, i.e. making it technically smaller?

2) Adding the shower could be altering a fixture or fitting as you're making the bath into a shower?

3) Is the radiator fixed to the wall? If so I would suggest technically you are changing the plan design of the room and also modifying/extending the power cable

Again only my thoughts, good luck!

[Johnniem]

I have dealt with hundreds of leases over the last 40 years and this is an odd one but not unexpected. The simplest thing to do is to write to the managing agents and tell them what you are proposing (with full details!). My expectation is that there will be no specific problems with getting consent from them as they are works that can be expected from a reasonably minded tenant wishing to make modernisations to the flat. All of the proposed works can be undone if needed at some point in the future and may even be beneficial to a new leaseholder or landlord. I don't believe that they can be vexatious about what you want to do but just check with them first. Make sure you get a paper/email trial and keep it safe!

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

JM

[Mandat]

I'm a surveyor and none of the works that you are proposing would make me think that landlord's consent is required, since none of the works alter the structure or layout of the property.

You are essentially putting a few plugs & screws into the walls, which is the same as putting up a shelf or hanging a mirror / picture on the wall. Such minor works are structurally irrelevant.

[Dg504]

Perhaps I’m a bit gung-ho compared to the two above but I’d do all of those things without getting written permission - none are irreversible or detrimental (and I’ve owned, and renovated a leasehold flat with an old school freeholder). I stopped asking as after we went the formal route first time round and they wanted a £750 fee to sign off a drawing (which we’d separately had to get and pay for planning for).

The wardrobes can be un-fitted & holes made good, as can the shower screen and rail. The rad being moved like you say with the right cable and ducting will never appear on floor plans? Did they survey the place when you bought it to make a record?

[Scarletpimpofnel]

Johnniem said:

I have dealt with hundreds of leases over the last 40 years and this is an odd one but not unexpected. The simplest thing to do is to write to the managing agents and tell them what you are proposing (with full details!). My expectation is that there will be no specific problems with getting consent from them as they are works that can be expected from a reasonably minded tenant wishing to make modernisations to the flat. All of the proposed works can be undone if needed at some point in the future and may even be beneficial to a new leaseholder or landlord. I don't believe that they can be vexatious about what you want to do but just check with them first. Make sure you get a paper/email trial and keep it safe!

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

JM

Thanks being a cautious person asking permission sits best with me EXCEPT these agents can be a dog with a bone and will want drawings, a fee etc before even giving an opinion. i.e. they won't just say "yeah your shower seems ok crack on" in case it morphs into a wet room that floods the float below etc. So I am more cautious about asking the agent as that will put it on their radar...

[Scarletpimpofnel]

Mandat said:

I'm a surveyor and none of the works that you are proposing would make me think that landlord's consent is required, since none of the works alter the structure or layout of the property.

You are essentially putting a few plugs & screws into the walls, which is the same as putting up a shelf or hanging a mirror / picture on the wall. Such minor works are structurally irrelevant.

I agree, minor works that can easily be removed. But common sense doesn't register with these people imo (I have had a very bad experience with an incompetent agent).

Moderator edit: nio naming & shaming

[Scarletpimpofnel]

Dg504 said:

Perhaps I m a bit gung-ho compared to the two above but I d do all of those things without getting written permission - none are irreversible or detrimental (and I ve owned, and renovated a leasehold flat with an old school freeholder). I stopped asking as after we went the formal route first time round and they wanted a £750 fee to sign off a drawing (which we d separately had to get and pay for planning for).

The wardrobes can be un-fitted & holes made good, as can the shower screen and rail. The rad being moved like you say with the right cable and ducting will never appear on floor plans? Did they survey the place when you bought it to make a record?

No they did not view before I bought as far as I know but photos of it's current state will be on Rightmove etc for ever more now so I cannot say "it was like that when I got it"!

If they ever grumble I can soon remove but all the changes are beneficial to future buyers so it would be nutty to be compelled to do so.

[Griffith4ever]

Ex- management director...................... just do it.

[kiethton]

As an ex. Freehold management director - just do it.

We shifted the layout of our old flat completely, new heating system with moved boiler, brought the kitchen to the living room and turned the kitchen to the bedroom, added a en-suite. No issues.

[Scarletpimpofnel]

@Last two posts ok thanks :-)

Edited by Scarletpimpofnel on Friday 10th July 22:16

[Griffith4ever]

Scarletpimpofnel said:

@Last two posts ok thanks :-)

Edited by Scarletpimpofnel on Friday 10th July 22:16

We had someone route his gas feed down through a cellar back up into his flat - once he'd done it there is very little you can practically do. (it was a well ventilated cellar so didn't cause a safety issue) I remodelled my interior as did many others - grade 2 listed so not really an issue, but the lease does say you have to get permission. No one did / does - its just so hard to enforce anything as a management company - the only power we "really" have is at flat sale time - any debts owed to the management co. can be clawed back before the money hits the vendor.

The remaining "power" is taking posession of the flat through the courts after a serious breach, but as advised by our solicitor, and , much reading on the web, is HIGHLY unlikely to work. Courts are just not in the habit of taking posession of peoples' homes. To say its a last resort is an understatement.

So once you rule that out you are left with very little power and learn its all about diplomacy and encouragement.

No dogs? ignored by several inc. one of my fellow directors.
No Vans? several had them, including me :-)

It sounds bad but it worked well enough. Everyone got along. I bought a cottage last year so am gone but it was a good 10 years, with some work as a director, but that paid off as I kept the outside of my flat looking nice, the management co. stable (essential if anyone wants to sell) and I managed to push through my sale in under 10 weeks - which for a leashold, with a small chain, was super fast.

They now have a management co with only one director - which is going to put people off buying. The remaining 26 residents need to step up and help - but that's their lookout now .

Edited by Griffith4ever on Saturday 11th July 08:25

[Wings]

Just by chance been invited into an adjoining leaseholder’s flat, and quite surprised at the partial removal of what appears to be load bearing walls. Whilst I am impressed with the open planned redesign of the flat, I as a director of the management company, will be requesting a full inspection of the flat, the same accompanied with a structurer surveyor.

[Scarletpimpofnel]

Wings said:

Just by chance been invited into an adjoining leaseholder s flat, and quite surprised at the partial removal of what appears to be load bearing walls. Whilst I am impressed with the open planned redesign of the flat, I as a director of the management company, will be requesting a full inspection of the flat, the same accompanied with a structurer surveyor.

Totally understand why you would do so. Anything structural or interfering with drains is a no no. What do you think about the works I intend to do above are reasonable or would you see an issue? Ty

[iphonedyou]

chewie2606 said:

Just my thoughts, not an expert in law, contracts, leases, landlords etc etc

1) Adding fitted wardrobes would change the "plan design" of the room, i.e. making it technically smaller?

2) Adding the shower could be altering a fixture or fitting as you're making the bath into a shower?

3) Is the radiator fixed to the wall? If so I would suggest technically you are changing the plan design of the room and also modifying/extending the power cable

Again only my thoughts, good luck!

Changing the plan design of the room means physically changing the room dimensions / shape. Adding wardrobes or removing a radiator doesn’t change the plan design of a room.