old topic, but advice please.
Discussion
Got to work to find a letter from Warwickshire Police to my company, - " Notice of intended prosecution".
Basically they are asking the company to supply details of the driver of one of our cars. They say they have photographic evidence of it doing 76mph, and give the location.
Curiously they say the road is a single carriageway in the letter, but it's actually a 3 lane carriage way at the point where the temporary camera was located, and the car they snapped was coming up the two lane side (ie, uphill, the down hill side being the single lane)
Question is therefore:
1, Do we have to supply driver details?
2, If yes, should I (ie, am I legally entitled) demand to see the photographic evidence before giving the details?
3, Does the fact that its a 3 lane road make any difference given their assertion in the letter that its a single carriageway?
The letter is full of the usual veiled threats of "failure to supply info blah blah blah, but whats the actuality of the situation?
Advice gratefully received.
thanks
Andy 400se
Basically they are asking the company to supply details of the driver of one of our cars. They say they have photographic evidence of it doing 76mph, and give the location.
Curiously they say the road is a single carriageway in the letter, but it's actually a 3 lane carriage way at the point where the temporary camera was located, and the car they snapped was coming up the two lane side (ie, uphill, the down hill side being the single lane)
Question is therefore:
1, Do we have to supply driver details?
2, If yes, should I (ie, am I legally entitled) demand to see the photographic evidence before giving the details?
3, Does the fact that its a 3 lane road make any difference given their assertion in the letter that its a single carriageway?
The letter is full of the usual veiled threats of "failure to supply info blah blah blah, but whats the actuality of the situation?
Advice gratefully received.
thanks
Andy 400se
I'd be tempted to write back to them and point out the error of their ways. IS it a dual carriageway or simply a three lane (makes a difference to applicable limits etc .....).
Definitely demand photographic evidence, as you do not have a system for recording who was driving. Then if the photo isn't clear .......... Just an idea of course.
Definitely demand photographic evidence, as you do not have a system for recording who was driving. Then if the photo isn't clear .......... Just an idea of course.
Dual carriageways have dividers in the middle, and NSL on them is 70. Single carriageways don't have dividers, irrespective of number of lanes, and NSL on them is 60.
It's an endorseble defence to fail to give details. Even if you don't know who was driving (you're supposed to take reasonable steps to track who's driving when).
I tried the refusing to say thing. 85 on a dual carriageway, 6 points, 800 pound fine.
It's an endorseble defence to fail to give details. Even if you don't know who was driving (you're supposed to take reasonable steps to track who's driving when).
I tried the refusing to say thing. 85 on a dual carriageway, 6 points, 800 pound fine.
I got caught out thinking a two lane my side one lane the other side was a dual carriageway - its not. 74mph and thank you very much North Wales Police.
So an offence was committed. Is the car owned by a large company? You might be able to get away with "no records as to who of a large number of employees were driving" stuff...it'd be interesting to see if (as a corporation) - that is an offence .. i.e. not to know who was driving one of your vehicles at any particular time. If it is - then a very onerous regime of record keeping will become essential to comply with the law.
Having said that...who wants to be an interesting test case? Could cost a fortune.
Find out who was driving and confess. Its not the end of the world...3pts..£60..
So an offence was committed. Is the car owned by a large company? You might be able to get away with "no records as to who of a large number of employees were driving" stuff...it'd be interesting to see if (as a corporation) - that is an offence .. i.e. not to know who was driving one of your vehicles at any particular time. If it is - then a very onerous regime of record keeping will become essential to comply with the law.
Having said that...who wants to be an interesting test case? Could cost a fortune.
Find out who was driving and confess. Its not the end of the world...3pts..£60..
You should take a look at these sites, most of the information you need is there or they have links to other useful sites.
www.residentlawyer.com/motoring/speeding/index.htm
www.abd.org.uk/
www.safespeed.org.uk/
Ken
www.residentlawyer.com/motoring/speeding/index.htm
www.abd.org.uk/
www.safespeed.org.uk/
Ken
Thanks Guys.
Now it gets interesting
The Pepipoo.com website makes it clear that the NIP must be issued within 14 days of the offense. If they don't do this then it says that they can't prosecute.
Some small slippage is allowed for comapny cars whilst they locate the registered keeper and serve notice, but basically they reckon 17 days is a max. Lets call it 20 days to be safe then.
Is this really true?
If so, I've got some news for Warwickshire constabulary!
The offense is listed as being committed on the 8th November (morning time) but the NIP was not issued till 3rd December. Thats 25 days!
Does this mean I can write a nice letter saying Bollox (very politely of course)?
Andy 400se
>> Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 4th December 12:14
Now it gets interesting
The Pepipoo.com website makes it clear that the NIP must be issued within 14 days of the offense. If they don't do this then it says that they can't prosecute.
Some small slippage is allowed for comapny cars whilst they locate the registered keeper and serve notice, but basically they reckon 17 days is a max. Lets call it 20 days to be safe then.
Is this really true?
If so, I've got some news for Warwickshire constabulary!
The offense is listed as being committed on the 8th November (morning time) but the NIP was not issued till 3rd December. Thats 25 days!
Does this mean I can write a nice letter saying Bollox (very politely of course)?
Andy 400se
>> Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 4th December 12:14
It is not an endorseable offence for a limited Co as opposed to a partnership to fail to supply details of the driver. The Co should show in defence that it tried all reasonable means to ascertain who the driver is and plead not guilty to a sect 172 offence ( conveniently not mentioned on any NIP )
There has not and is not a requirement for any Co to keep details of driver times etc for cars.
There has not and is not a requirement for any Co to keep details of driver times etc for cars.
I think the driver not known would only work for pool cars, any car supplied to a specific driver would automatically be assumed to be driven by that person or somebody known to that person. But, the validity of claiming it is a pool car will not be known to the issuer of the NIP. Not that I would recommend or condone this course of action because if it was found out to be a lie further action would probably be taken.
andymadmak said: Thanks Guys.
Now it gets interesting
The Pepipoo.com website makes it clear that the NIP must be issued within 14 days of the offense. If they don't do this then it says that they can't prosecute.
The NIP must be issued (served, which can mean by 1st class post)within 14 days of the date of the offence, not including the date of the offence.
It is immaterial if you do not receive it within 14 days. 14 weeks is sufficient if the NIP was put in the post in time and you have been difficult to trace.
Some small slippage is allowed for comapny cars whilst they locate the registered keeper and serve notice, but basically they reckon 17 days is a max. Lets call it 20 days to be safe then.
Is this really true?
No it isn't true. If it has not been served within 14 days after the date of the offence then their is no slippage. It is not a valid notice,
If so, I've got some news for Warwickshire constabulary!
The offense is listed as being committed on the 8th November (morning time) but the NIP was not issued till 3rd December. Thats 25 days!
Does this mean I can write a nice letter saying Bollox (very politely of course)?
Andy 400se
>> Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 4th December 12:14
The offence was committed on the 8th so the 9th is the critical date.
If the NIP itself is dated after 22nd November, then you are not liable. Send it back telling them it is out of time.
This ones back!
Just got two (!) letters from the Police saying
1, they still want me to supply the name of the driver for their records (I did not do this origionally, on the grounds that the NIP was sent too late) and they are threatening prosecution if I don't tell them
2, They are now saying that they DID send the NIP within 14 days - but they sent it to the lease company ( its a company car leased from Lex) and that they sent the NIP to my company as soon as Lex told them we were running the car. This being the case they say they can still pursue the prosecution.
So my questions are
1, Do I have to give the name of the driver now (me!)
2, My understanding from the Peppipoo website and advice I have received from friendly Police people both here and elsewhere was that the 14 day period for sending the NIP to the driver/keeper allowed for the Police to have time to secure details of keepers from lease companies like Lex. In other words, the Police STILL had to serve ME/My company with the NIP within 14 days. Is this the case? If so, how do I respond to the falsehood that Warwickshire Police appear to have sent me?
Thanks in advance
Andy 400se
Just got two (!) letters from the Police saying
1, they still want me to supply the name of the driver for their records (I did not do this origionally, on the grounds that the NIP was sent too late) and they are threatening prosecution if I don't tell them
2, They are now saying that they DID send the NIP within 14 days - but they sent it to the lease company ( its a company car leased from Lex) and that they sent the NIP to my company as soon as Lex told them we were running the car. This being the case they say they can still pursue the prosecution.
So my questions are
1, Do I have to give the name of the driver now (me!)
2, My understanding from the Peppipoo website and advice I have received from friendly Police people both here and elsewhere was that the 14 day period for sending the NIP to the driver/keeper allowed for the Police to have time to secure details of keepers from lease companies like Lex. In other words, the Police STILL had to serve ME/My company with the NIP within 14 days. Is this the case? If so, how do I respond to the falsehood that Warwickshire Police appear to have sent me?
Thanks in advance
Andy 400se
I'm afraid that you're sunk, old bean, provided they did serve the NIP to Lex in time 
Still... you can always write back to them and query this - the longer you can stall it, the less chance they'll pursue it.. and the more work you cause the system which helps our cause in general..
Still... you can always write back to them and query this - the longer you can stall it, the less chance they'll pursue it.. and the more work you cause the system which helps our cause in general..
Ask them for PROOF they contacted your hire company. If they can't provide it, then they aren't complying with the rules, and *surely* the case would be kicked out... don't take my word for it, go ahead and ask them for a duplicate letter.
I bet you could get this case dropped if you wrote them a nice letter with certain (polite) key phrases.. such as pointing out that if you are "forced" to name a driver, that if you are prosecuted, that this case will return to haunt them when Article 6 is upheld.... I suggested this in one of my letters. Next letter I got from them said they'd dropped the case.
Your choice. Find out more, don't just sit there.
C
I bet you could get this case dropped if you wrote them a nice letter with certain (polite) key phrases.. such as pointing out that if you are "forced" to name a driver, that if you are prosecuted, that this case will return to haunt them when Article 6 is upheld.... I suggested this in one of my letters. Next letter I got from them said they'd dropped the case.
Your choice. Find out more, don't just sit there.
C
)
mondeoman said: nope - 14 CALENDAR days
From the day after the offence was committed.
So in effect 15 days. Service only has to be proved by way of 1st class post. That is enough.
Weekends are counted within the 14 days.
You do not have to receive it within the 14 days as long as it is sent within that time.
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