RR tuning for S3-any improvement?

[magnus]

Simple question: have any of you had an unmodified HEALTHY normally aspirated engine RR remapped and noticed ANY IMPROVEMENT IN TORQUE/POWER AT ALL?? Yes I have read about Podie's experience with Austec and it looks impressive until you realise that he went in on his own admission with a sick engine--of course it's going to improve. Podie quotes substantial increases in P/T of about 15%. I am absolutely sceptical that anything like this could be obtained with a normal engine-more like 1% to 3% because simple logic states that you don't get "sumpt for owt" but you can of course move what you've got around a bit.

[Tripps]

I thought the same thing with mine, as it scored 172.4 bhp @ 5580rpm and 204.8 lb/ft @ 3085rpm. AFAIK it has no engine, air or exhaust mods that would make it like that, so I've presumed it was a good engine from first build.

See here for details and dyno plots.

[magnus]

Tripps said:

I thought the same thing with mine, as it scored 172.4 bhp @ 5580rpm and 204.8 lb/ft @ 3085rpm. AFAIK it has no engine, air or exhaust mods that would make it like that, so I've presumed it was a good engine from first build. See here for details and dyno plots.

bhp just what I thought--about 2-3% but torque surprisingly good at about 19% better.
Perhaps you can get "sumpt for owt" after all---then this begs the question why didn't TVR do it in the first place ?(ie flatten the torque curve).

[Tripps]

To be fair I think mine would need a full inspection and ECU check to see if anything has been uprated on it, as otherwise mine must have been screwed together on a good day.

I know the previous owner (for three years) didn't do anything, so changes previous to that would have been 5 years back.

Perhaps I'll rope another S owner into having a drive to see if there is any sort of obvious difference...

[Pies]

Rembeber when these engines are built the ECU is designed to keep them going in all exstreams of weather.By remapping you can do away with so of the limits that are built in therefore releasing a bit more power/torque

[bridgdav]

magnus said:

you can of course move what you've got around a bit.

Hi Magnus....

I think you might have missed the whole Gist of the Podie treatment....

:grannysuckseggsmodeon:

The TVR S is a V6 2.9 Injected Ford engine in a small, light rear wheel driven sports car..

The breathing, exhaust and location has been changed from the original manufacturers specifications to enable the engine to fit in the car....

HOWEVER.....

The original ECU installed on MY car by TVR was from a South African Ford Taurus...

The setup of the car (timing, air, fuel, mixture, Do I need to carry on....) are that of the S.A Taurus.

Not a 2 seater sports car weighing under 1 ton, having better air flow, almost straight through exhaust system, and being in a climate vastly different from the South African Taurus........


Podie IIRC wanted to see what the 2.9i V6 engine could realise as regards to P/T... He asked various Ford specialists in his area who said the no gaurantees could be given on gains...

SO...He went to Austec, who added the Dastec programable chip....

The chip enables Paul(Austec engineer) to adjust all the settings within the engine management system, to work with that particular engine, not accross a range of possible cars....

I had my car remapped with the chip, I also had gains in performance 15% etc...

BUT, what we have always said is that the driving experience has been improved, the smoooooooootheness on acceleration is so much better, the car is more responsive, it is better around town.....

This is what the PODIE teatment was all about....

RR tuning for S3 was you original question.....

:grannysuckseggsmodeoff:


I hope I have explained what the Austec upgrade was all about...

As I've said before...If you want more power, torque, acceleration from an S.... Get a V8...

If you want the optimum power and torque delivery available to a standard engine, get the management system to work for you rather than for everyone.....

Dave

[magnus]

bridgdav said:

magnus said: you can of course move what you've got around a bit. Hi Magnus.... I think you might have missed the whole Gist of the Podie treatment.... :grannysuckseggsmodeon: The TVR S is a V6 2.9 Injected Ford engine in a small, light rear wheel driven sports car.. The breathing, exhaust and location has been changed from the original manufacturers specifications to enable the engine to fit in the car.... HOWEVER..... The original ECU installed on MY car by TVR was from a South African Ford Taurus... The setup of the car (timing, air, fuel, mixture, Do I need to carry on....) are that of the S.A Taurus. Not a 2 seater sports car weighing under 1 ton, having better air flow, almost straight through exhaust system, and being in a climate vastly different from the South African Taurus........ Podie IIRC wanted to see what the 2.9i V6 engine could realise as regards to P/T... He asked various Ford specialists in his area who said the no gaurantees could be given on gains... SO...He went to Austec, who added the Dastec programable chip.... The chip enables Paul(Austec engineer) to adjust all the settings within the engine management system, to work with that particular engine, not accross a range of possible cars.... I had my car remapped with the chip, I also had gains in performance 15% etc... BUT, what we have always said is that the driving experience has been improved, the smoooooooootheness on acceleration is so much better, the car is more responsive, it is better around town..... This is what the PODIE teatment was all about.... RR tuning for S3 was you original question..... :grannysuckseggsmodeoff: I hope I have explained what the Austec upgrade was all about... As I've said before...If you want more power, torque, acceleration from an S.... Get a V8... If you want the optimum power and torque delivery available to a standard engine, get the management system to work for you rather than for everyone..... Dave

ECU from a South African Taurus eh---I might have guessed---tx for the information that alters things--the indicators are of course from a centurion tank--or so I have heard )

[magnus]

bridgdav said:

magnus said: you can of course move what you've got around a bit. Hi Magnus.... I think you might have missed the whole Gist of the Podie treatment.... :grannysuckseggsmodeon: The TVR S is a V6 2.9 Injected Ford engine in a small, light rear wheel driven sports car.. The breathing, exhaust and location has been changed from the original manufacturers specifications to enable the engine to fit in the car.... HOWEVER..... The original ECU installed on MY car by TVR was from a South African Ford Taurus... The setup of the car (timing, air, fuel, mixture, Do I need to carry on....) are that of the S.A Taurus. Not a 2 seater sports car weighing under 1 ton, having better air flow, almost straight through exhaust system, and being in a climate vastly different from the South African Taurus........ OK--Dumbomode: I am still puzzled. TVR are obviously aware of all you say. If they are using a range of different Cologne V6 chips (they are surely not ALL SA Taurus chips) then why is not each chip factory programmed to suit the S Series wherever it might be-just seems basic commonsense to do this. Normalmode(not as above hopefully!): I can see an advantage with RR mapping of an unmodified normally aspirated engine: the ECU can be tailored to your driving style. Podie IIRC wanted to see what the 2.9i V6 engine could realise as regards to P/T... He asked various Ford specialists in his area who said the no gaurantees could be given on gains... SO...He went to Austec, who added the Dastec programable chip.... The chip enables Paul(Austec engineer) to adjust all the settings within the engine management system, to work with that particular engine, not accross a range of possible cars.... I had my car remapped with the chip, I also had gains in performance 15% etc... BUT, what we have always said is that the driving experience has been improved, the smoooooooootheness on acceleration is so much better, the car is more responsive, it is better around town..... This is what the PODIE teatment was all about.... RR tuning for S3 was you original question..... :grannysuckseggsmodeoff: I hope I have explained what the Austec upgrade was all about... As I've said before...If you want more power, torque, acceleration from an S.... Get a V8... If you want the optimum power and torque delivery available to a standard engine, get the management system to work for you rather than for everyone..... Dave

[magnus]

I was replying to Dave's bit after more reflection but it seems to have got lost somewhere (how do you outline parts only of the script??).
What I wanted to say (Dumbomode??) was that TVR are obviously aware of all that Dave says regarding chips for a range of cars (they also probably have a range of Ford ECU's)--then why doesn't the factory reprogram each chip for the car and conditions--just seems basic commonsense.
I can see one advantage of RR tuning of a normally aspirated engine---you can reprogram to suit your driving style.

[z_chromozone]

magnus said:

I was replying to Dave's bit after more reflection but it seems to have got lost somewhere (how do you outline parts only of the script??). What I wanted to say (Dumbomode??) was that TVR are obviously aware of all that Dave says regarding chips for a range of cars (they also probably have a range of Ford ECU's)--then why doesn't the factory reprogram each chip for the car and conditions--just seems basic commonsense. I can see one advantage of RR tuning of a normally aspirated engine---you can reprogram to suit your driving style.

It would have increased the cost of a car that for most is perfectly fast enough. There are lots of examples of this through out TVR history. The V8 cars also run on rover ecu's. Pies and Griff 500 inlet pipes are not even flared, all S cars use Ford Sierra brakes etc.

However, it does mean that if you are prepared to spend some cash you can enhance the performace of the basic product.

Z

[Podie]

magnus said:

I have read about Podie's experience with Austec and it looks impressive until you realise that he went in on his own admission with a sick engine--of course it's going to improve.

Er… excuse me..? Sick engine..?

What I stated was that the engine was running as it has been from the factory. The point is that TVR used stock Ford parts to make it work and quoted figures accordingly.

What Austec proved is that the basic setup is poor (the S3c is notorius for being the worst of the lot). Added to the sports exhaust, the car was running too lean… HOWEVER as I pointed out in the article I was perfectly happy with the cars performance PRIOR to the work.

The ECU re-map meant that the engine was running properly, hence the gains in power and torque - and also in fuel economy.

[Tripps]

Its also a matter of meeting an number of important compromises for releasing a car to the public, insurance, ride quality, emissions, noise - the list goes on. Ford would have spent millions testing this ECU for all those criteria, where-as TVR didn't have the time, money or facilities for it so went with the standard product knowing that if someone wanted more power and was happy to increase noise (not a bad thing for most of us) and pollution they could do so, and TVR would not be liable.

The jap cars like a Scooby, Evo and Skyline (and most stuff with turbos) can have massive performance increases for a few hundred quid chip, but insurance and a Japanese good-will rule about 285bhp stops them doing so.