Engine Rattle

[andy-white]

Hi guys, in the last week or so my 400 has started making a fairly loud metallic rattle from the engine. The strange thing is it is not continuous but intermitent, can last for 5 seconds to over a minute and has occured when the engine has been cold, warm and hot. Unfortunately much to my frustration whenever i've stopped at home its not been making the noise so i cant pinpoint its exact location but it is definately engine related.
I'm guessing by the noise, the fact that its intermitent and seems to be having no effect on running characterisics that its a dodgy hydraulic tappet.... Have any of you guys experienced anything similar????

[Nacnud]

Yup!
I had a death rattle which got worse with a bad misfire on my way to Goodwood FOS. It didn't sound drivable, so I got those friendly chaps at Peninsula on the mobile and they came up with the unlikely sounding suggestion of my inlet trumpets falling out and bouncing around my plenum chamber!

Unlikely as it sounds - they were right!
There were actually two of my inlet trumpets bouncing around! A small crimp in the trumpet before replacing into the holes to tighten things up a bit, and (touch wood) all has been well ever since.

Biggest problem was performing the work infront of the Goodwood crowds!

[Nacnud]

My noise sounded like it was coming from between the rocker boxes and really did sound like a metal on metal death rattle. It was very dependant on revs and was a lot more noticable under load.

Fingers crossed this is your problem as it's easy to sort out.
All the best - Duncan

[andy-white]

Cheers Duncan. Drove the car into work this morning and it didnt make the noise once! Surely if it was something loose it would make the noise all the time!? Its very intermitent and not load dependant.
PS i saw your car at goodwood, the sidepipes are seriously cool!!!

[TaSmania]

Andy,
My 400 did exactly the same - it was a lazy tappet which seemed to do as you say. I decided to fit a new cam when I replaced the followers all up£1k Check Duncan's solution first - cheaper to repair.
GB

[andy-white]

Well it made the noise again on the way home but by the time i'd stopped to get under the bonnet to have a listen it had stopped rattling, what an *rse!!! All i can say is that only seems to rattle at low revs.
I'll check the trumpets before making any major decision but i'm expecting the worse case scenarion that it is a lazy follower.
Judjing by the Rover 3500 manual it seems a fairly straightforward job to change the cam & followers.
Are there any inherrent pitfalls you guys know of with regards to changing the cam in the best of DIY tradition or any other bits i should replace while the thing is apart ??? (im pretty familiar with oily bits having rebuilt an engine in the past)

[kevinday]

Just a quick and probably silly question - Are you sure it is not 'pinking' because of poor grade fuel?

[TaSmania]

Andy,
The followers can be easy to change - only potential issue is if the bottom of any have gone bell shaped they won't come out without taking the cam out - Todate I've never experienced this though. Changing the cam means removing the front cover (oil/water pump, etc) and thus the crank pulley which can be fun!
The cam is tight - i.e. mine just came out/went back in but touched the radiator. I got a new cam from V8 Dev't with there tweak on a Kent 218, a vernier duplex timing chain and gaskets for around £400. I already had new followers and push rods to hand. I've always been advised to change the push rods when doing the followers and the other strong advice was to do the cam as they tend all to get sympathetic wear marks.
Pinking - there's a thought - high load low rpm and accel and if it makes a rattly noise - maybe - more often hot than when cold.
Enjoy.
GB

[greg450se]

Hi
I have just rebuilt my engine, piston crown melted,
I have fitted a Kent 404 with solid lifters,adjustable rods etc,WOW what a difference after 3K revs it pulls like a train and its louder but is OK in traffic ,the original cam was a 214 but upon inspoction was worn
so a new cam etc was required .To get the cam out with engine in situ I had to when the support the block and jack up about six inches
PS make sure you have DTI,timing disc etc to time cam in.
Overall well worth the mod what a power difference.The induction sysytem is standard
GO FOR IT.


regards

Greg

[andy-white]

Thanks for the comment’s guys, all very helpful stuff
Pinking is not a silly question at all. Thought the same thing myself when I first heard the noise, so i eased off the gas and it still made the noise. Then put the clutch in and it still makes the noise – 100% dependant on engine rpm under no load at all.
Just a few more questions in response to some points you’ve brought up…
I thought that if you change the followers it was absolutely essential that the cam was changed too. Is that correct???? If I can get away with just changing the followers then that would be great. (cash is tight at the moment)
Is there any more advantage to solid lifters other than just high rev capability?
I’ve got a 214 in at the moment (engine rebuilt at 30K by fernhurst tvr ,now at 78k) which feels pretty hot – lumpy idle, pretty gutless below 3k then rrroooooaaaaarrr here we go baby sh*t-off-a -hovel fast race for the red line! I’m quite happy with this but would like the impossible - same top end with more torque below 3k !!!! How exactly does the V8 Dev 218 compare with the 214 ?
Am well aware of the need to time the cam in. Is it possible to do so without taking a head off (DTI through the plug hole!?)
Many thanks,
Andy

[GreenV8S]

I had a 214 hybrid in the 3.9, it did pull nicely at the top end but nothing at the bottom end. I changed to a 218 in the 4.6, which despite the name is actually a shorter period cam. The capacity increase would have tamed the cam anyway, but I've come to the conclusion that the 218 is a much more practical cam for normal road use.

[TaSmania]

The V8Dev't cam based on the 218 (MC1 I think they call it) felt generally the same as the 214 other than smoother idle. Torque felt a bit better low down but this may have been due to the old cam being worn. It's a bit of a mute point followers without cam and some may say a bodge but it can be done & often is!
GB

[DICKYMINT]

TaSmania said:

The V8Dev't cam based on the 218 (MC1 I think they call it) felt generally the same as the 214 other than smoother idle. Torque felt a bit better low down but this may have been due to the old cam being worn. It's a bit of a mute point followers without cam and some may say a bodge but it can be done & often is! GB

Yes it can be done but the manufacturers (who want to sell both of course)will tell you that accelerated wear will take place if not changed together-something to do with the older parts will have been work hardened and stuff.
Something else to be sure and do is to check/shim the valve preload gap 0.060" nominal.

[rev-erend]

So is a 404 a better cam (more top end power) than the
214 / 218 cams... I'm bored with the power of mine and
still fancy more power - with the engine able and wanting to rev round to 6500rpm but without sacreficing longevity (don't want a broke valve train.. springs etc). I don't mind if it's a solid lifter cam.

It's a 4.6 - so I don't mind a slight lack of midrange.

Any recomendations.

[andy-white]

DICKYMINT said:

Yes it can be done but the manufacturers (who want to sell both of course)will tell you that accelerated wear will take place if not changed together-something to do with the older parts will have been work hardened and stuff. Something else to be sure and do is to check/shim the valve preload gap 0.060" nominal.

Is that something you set-up within the follower itself??? Didnt realise there where shims anywhere!

[DICKYMINT]

andy-white said:

DICKYMINT said: Yes it can be done but the manufacturers (who want to sell both of course)will tell you that accelerated wear will take place if not changed together-something to do with the older parts will have been work hardened and stuff. Something else to be sure and do is to check/shim the valve preload gap 0.060" nominal. Is that something you set-up within the follower itself??? Didnt realise there where shims anywhere!

This should explain better than I can.
Got my 285 cam from RPI.They were extremely helpfull and sent my fitter a drawing of where and how to check.
Youll get the jist of it by the photos.
Have fun.
OOps forgot to add the link.......www.v8engines.com/engine-4.htm#pre-load

>> Edited by DICKYMINT on Thursday 23 October 07:49

[TaSmania]

Dicky:- Interesting link & a completely new one on me - it's always good to learn something every day. It is though a little confusing as I thought the whole idea of the hydraulic follower was to negate the need for shimming/setting as the cam pushes one way and the valve spring the other and the oil in the tappet fills the gap - I must talk to my old colleagues in Land Rover Powertrain on this one, certainly Ray at V8Dev't never mentioned it when we talked about re-building my old 4.0, maybe they just do it as a matter of course.

Rev; isn't the 404 a solid lifter cam? If so then adjustable rods and solid lifters/followers needed - I assume the head is sorted so can cope with this cam. My 420 has a solid lifter motor in it and whilst it's tractible low down it takes off as if it's ar*e is on fire after 4k and cleanly revs up beyond 6k - glorious engine note ensues - ye-ha.
GW

[2 sheds]

rev-erend said:

So is a 404 a better cam (more top end power) than the 214 / 218 cams... I'm bored with the power of mine and still fancy more power - with the engine able and wanting to rev round to 6500rpm but without sacreficing longevity (don't want a broke valve train.. springs etc). I don't mind if it's a solid lifter cam. It's a 4.6 - so I don't mind a slight lack of midrange. Any recomendations.

IIRC your car has a kent 200 so the 218 would give a fare bit more "top end", the 404 is what i would fit, but as you know they need adjustment/ checking at 6000 miles or so, A customer of mine fitted a 404 to his 420 SEAC, did all the work himself end result 290 bhp & 290 torque, he is over the moon.
You may be able to get a ride in one ?
Tim

[rev-erend]

Thanks All,

Tim - you are right - my car has a 200 hybrid..
it would be very at home if I needed to tow a
caravan... but I don't like it's character for
a sports car...

I'm not sure what heads are on my engine ... on
the build receipt it just says - customer supplied
own heads... so they could be original 4.5 seac heads
or anything... it does have nice roller rockers though.

It sounds like a 404 is the way to go .. but who sells them ?

>> Edited by rev-erend on Thursday 23 October 10:11

[2 sheds]

The 404 is only available from V8 Developments, 01775 750000,
Your heads sound interesting, roller rockers alone are about £700.
Tim