So frustrated!
Discussion
Hey everyone, I'm not an avid poster on pistonheads' forums. But I have a really frustrating problem with my 85 280i. I can't get the thing started, and it idles for maybe 2 seconds, and then it shuts off. It is hit or miss on if it starts, idles, dies. I have never successfully kept it running for more than a minute or so. and if it does idle, it idles hard.
I have placed a new fuel pump on it, a new fuel metering head, all 6 fuel injectors spray in a perfect cone, and i have great fuel pressure. I have had this problem for the last year and am now getting around to try and tackle it again.
I have called around to many "European specialists" asking them if they would take a look at it. And they all say, well i don't know what a TVR is. Even if i tell them it's a british car and uses a bosch k-jetronic injection system, they want to charge me an arm and a leg to look at it because "they don't know what it is"
I'm only 24 so I can't really dish out a lot of moola to someone who is gonna sit there and say ...hmmm it might be your muffler bearings or blinker fluid. If ya get my drift.
Any help at all would be appreciated, i'm mechanically inclined just don't know what the heck is wrong here.
-Jeremy Gunn
BTW i'm in Salt Lake City, UT USA
I have placed a new fuel pump on it, a new fuel metering head, all 6 fuel injectors spray in a perfect cone, and i have great fuel pressure. I have had this problem for the last year and am now getting around to try and tackle it again.
I have called around to many "European specialists" asking them if they would take a look at it. And they all say, well i don't know what a TVR is. Even if i tell them it's a british car and uses a bosch k-jetronic injection system, they want to charge me an arm and a leg to look at it because "they don't know what it is"
I'm only 24 so I can't really dish out a lot of moola to someone who is gonna sit there and say ...hmmm it might be your muffler bearings or blinker fluid. If ya get my drift.
Any help at all would be appreciated, i'm mechanically inclined just don't know what the heck is wrong here.
-Jeremy Gunn
BTW i'm in Salt Lake City, UT USA
jeremo84 said:
Hey everyone, I'm not an avid poster on pistonheads' forums. But I have a really frustrating problem with my 85 280i. I can't get the thing started, and it idles for maybe 2 seconds, and then it shuts off. It is hit or miss on if it starts, idles, dies. I have never successfully kept it running for more than a minute or so. and if it does idle, it idles hard.
I have placed a new fuel pump on it, a new fuel metering head, all 6 fuel injectors spray in a perfect cone, and i have great fuel pressure. I have had this problem for the last year and am now getting around to try and tackle it again.
I have called around to many "European specialists" asking them if they would take a look at it. And they all say, well i don't know what a TVR is. Even if i tell them it's a british car and uses a bosch k-jetronic injection system, they want to charge me an arm and a leg to look at it because "they don't know what it is"
Hi I cant really help but it may be worth putting this in the ford section as some of the 280 injection capri guys might know hope this helps.
I'm only 24 so I can't really dish out a lot of moola to someone who is gonna sit there and say ...hmmm it might be your muffler bearings or blinker fluid. If ya get my drift.
Any help at all would be appreciated, i'm mechanically inclined just don't know what the heck is wrong here.
-Jeremy Gunn
BTW i'm in Salt Lake City, UT USA
I have placed a new fuel pump on it, a new fuel metering head, all 6 fuel injectors spray in a perfect cone, and i have great fuel pressure. I have had this problem for the last year and am now getting around to try and tackle it again.
I have called around to many "European specialists" asking them if they would take a look at it. And they all say, well i don't know what a TVR is. Even if i tell them it's a british car and uses a bosch k-jetronic injection system, they want to charge me an arm and a leg to look at it because "they don't know what it is"
Hi I cant really help but it may be worth putting this in the ford section as some of the 280 injection capri guys might know hope this helps.
I'm only 24 so I can't really dish out a lot of moola to someone who is gonna sit there and say ...hmmm it might be your muffler bearings or blinker fluid. If ya get my drift.
Any help at all would be appreciated, i'm mechanically inclined just don't know what the heck is wrong here.
-Jeremy Gunn
BTW i'm in Salt Lake City, UT USA
All the British Fords of the early to mid eighties used these engines.I had a similar problem on my 350i some years back (firing up then stopping straight away) and it turned out to be a relay problem. I don't know if your 280 has a similar set up, but if the relays or holders are the same the following info copied from an old thread may help.
[report] Thursday 26th July 2007
When changing relays watch out for subtle differences on the pin numbering. I got caught out as I missed the centre pin was numbered 87a on several but only 87 on another, caused me loads of stress. It's very easy to miss on a dusty old relay. Also the 'quality' relay sockets that TVR use often means that when you push the relay in the front, the wires push out the back!
[report] Friday 27th July 2007
Just checked my relay arrangement. I have 17 of them in addition to the 'red' one which on mine is labeled 'ECU reverse polarity safety relay'. Most of the rest are numbered
. . 30
85 87a 86
. . 87
But the ECU + FI relay is numbered
. . 30
85 87 86
. . 87
If you fit a relay with 'a' on the centre pin of the ECU FI relay, the car will run for about 2 seconds then stop.
the fuel pump relay is numbered
. . 30/51
85 87a 86
. . 87
and the fan relay (4 pin only) is numbered
.. 86
85 ... 30/51
.. 87
[report] Thursday 26th July 2007
When changing relays watch out for subtle differences on the pin numbering. I got caught out as I missed the centre pin was numbered 87a on several but only 87 on another, caused me loads of stress. It's very easy to miss on a dusty old relay. Also the 'quality' relay sockets that TVR use often means that when you push the relay in the front, the wires push out the back!
[report] Friday 27th July 2007
Just checked my relay arrangement. I have 17 of them in addition to the 'red' one which on mine is labeled 'ECU reverse polarity safety relay'. Most of the rest are numbered
. . 30
85 87a 86
. . 87
But the ECU + FI relay is numbered
. . 30
85 87 86
. . 87
If you fit a relay with 'a' on the centre pin of the ECU FI relay, the car will run for about 2 seconds then stop.
the fuel pump relay is numbered
. . 30/51
85 87a 86
. . 87
and the fan relay (4 pin only) is numbered
.. 86
85 ... 30/51
.. 87
Hi,
Not sure how useful this is but, I used to own a 280i for quite some years, had a similar problem in that the car would start no problem and as long as the ignition was held in postion II (starting) it would stay running but as soon as released back into postion I (ignition On) as for normal running after starting, it would die and stop, turned out to be a broken wire in the NS wheel arch/chassis area, never managed to trace exactly where it went from or to as all wiring on that 81 280i was black, any identification that was originally on the wiring long since perished. May be a long shot but hope this helps. Cheers, Rich.
Not sure how useful this is but, I used to own a 280i for quite some years, had a similar problem in that the car would start no problem and as long as the ignition was held in postion II (starting) it would stay running but as soon as released back into postion I (ignition On) as for normal running after starting, it would die and stop, turned out to be a broken wire in the NS wheel arch/chassis area, never managed to trace exactly where it went from or to as all wiring on that 81 280i was black, any identification that was originally on the wiring long since perished. May be a long shot but hope this helps. Cheers, Rich.
I feel your pain - particularly as I'm about to try to figure out what my shop did to my idle in an effort to fail my emissions inspection.
Do you have the Bible, the manual and the FI insert? Not sure if they have the answer but from my read last night - lots of clues. Plus if you go to a shop, it's sometimes better to bring a copy of your book and specs.
BTW - I did a Google of SLC and found www.alexsautohaus.com . I'd pay them a visit but soft peddle the TVR/British car part b/c that generally means Lucas & carbs. On the other hand, a lot of mid-80s European cars (high and low end) used the same FI.
God luck - Grady
Houston.
Do you have the Bible, the manual and the FI insert? Not sure if they have the answer but from my read last night - lots of clues. Plus if you go to a shop, it's sometimes better to bring a copy of your book and specs.
BTW - I did a Google of SLC and found www.alexsautohaus.com . I'd pay them a visit but soft peddle the TVR/British car part b/c that generally means Lucas & carbs. On the other hand, a lot of mid-80s European cars (high and low end) used the same FI.
God luck - Grady
Houston.
It sounds like it's firing on the gas from the extra injecter (cold start injecter operated from thermotime switch) it should then get some "help" from the aux air device until it is "hot".
The aux air device suplies extra air and therefore extra gas til it warms up.
It is situated on top front of the motor right side and has two hoses on it.
Pull off the hoses with the car cold you should be able to see through the hole. As the car heats up it closes off. If you can't see thro' it take it off and give it some carb cleaner (B12 Chemtool is very good) soak overnight if needed. Heat it up over the cooker when wife is out you should see the small half moon close up.
If per chance your aux air thingy is ok, then you have to check system and operating pressures, post again if you need fuel pressure help, hope it's not the WUR. pricey !
Edit to add check your sensor plate is not sticking. It's sprung, but if you put your hand under it it should lift up easily without snagging.
Fuel system very similar to '74 911 if that helps.
The aux air device suplies extra air and therefore extra gas til it warms up.
It is situated on top front of the motor right side and has two hoses on it.
Pull off the hoses with the car cold you should be able to see through the hole. As the car heats up it closes off. If you can't see thro' it take it off and give it some carb cleaner (B12 Chemtool is very good) soak overnight if needed. Heat it up over the cooker when wife is out you should see the small half moon close up.
If per chance your aux air thingy is ok, then you have to check system and operating pressures, post again if you need fuel pressure help, hope it's not the WUR. pricey !
Edit to add check your sensor plate is not sticking. It's sprung, but if you put your hand under it it should lift up easily without snagging.
Fuel system very similar to '74 911 if that helps.
Edited by jeff m on Saturday 26th April 05:15
Sounds like a number of things - I would check the wiring into the coil making sure you get 12 volts when cranked. I would also check your HT leads to make sure there is no breakdown. you should do a spark test at at plugs starting with the a spark from the coil to the dizzy then to each plug - if no spark that's where your problem is. Based on what you have said - your coil looks suspect. If its - go with an MSD Blaster2 coil with a ballast resistor.
If the fuel is too rich (black and sooted plugs) linked with poor voltage going into the coil that would create a misfire.
No matter the engine though - any decent auto electrician will be able to find the fault if its related to your car's electrics..
If the fuel is too rich (black and sooted plugs) linked with poor voltage going into the coil that would create a misfire.
No matter the engine though - any decent auto electrician will be able to find the fault if its related to your car's electrics..
In reply to the last two posters, I believe i checked the voltage last year and it was indeed below 12v, i think it was pushing out around 9 or 10. I just couldn't figure out where i was losing power. I took pictures over the weekend, of the wires i have question on etc. I very well have made some wrong decisions on which wires go where. I'll try to get the pictures up when i get home
-Jeremy Gunn
-Jeremy Gunn
Jeremy,
The voltage on the + side of the coil is MEANT to be below 12volts with the key in the "run" position, 8 or 9 is normal.
The coil is expecting it
During starting a full 12 volts is directed at the coil from the start position on the key, it's same wire that goes to starter sol and thermotime switch. In reality the coil ends up with less than 12 volts because of the volt drop caused by the starter heavy load.
A ballast resister is used. It is a blue thick wire if the car is original.
If the coil has been changed then it's possible that a "component type "resister has replaced the blue wire as the ballast. As the ballast must/should match the coil.
If you still have 8,9 or 10 volts on the + side with the key in and on run then leave the electrics alone (for now)
If you put a test lamp on the pos side of the coil and start the car it should continue to glow after the car has stalled. Possibly slightly dimmer but that's ok. If it doesn't......report here.
The voltage on the + side of the coil is MEANT to be below 12volts with the key in the "run" position, 8 or 9 is normal.
The coil is expecting it
During starting a full 12 volts is directed at the coil from the start position on the key, it's same wire that goes to starter sol and thermotime switch. In reality the coil ends up with less than 12 volts because of the volt drop caused by the starter heavy load.
A ballast resister is used. It is a blue thick wire if the car is original.
If the coil has been changed then it's possible that a "component type "resister has replaced the blue wire as the ballast. As the ballast must/should match the coil.
If you still have 8,9 or 10 volts on the + side with the key in and on run then leave the electrics alone (for now)
If you put a test lamp on the pos side of the coil and start the car it should continue to glow after the car has stalled. Possibly slightly dimmer but that's ok. If it doesn't......report here.
Alright everyone, i uploaded a few photos of some various electrical wiring etc. to flickr. Here is the address.
I can take any pictures if you need to see different wires etc. I'm picking up a voltage meter and a test light today so I can check what everyone has been discussing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26154543@N02/
I can take any pictures if you need to see different wires etc. I'm picking up a voltage meter and a test light today so I can check what everyone has been discussing.
Edited by jeremo84 on Wednesday 30th April 20:02
Grady said:
I feel your pain - particularly as I'm about to try to figure out what my shop did to my idle in an effort to fail my emissions inspection.
Do you have the Bible, the manual and the FI insert? Not sure if they have the answer but from my read last night - lots of clues. Plus if you go to a shop, it's sometimes better to bring a copy of your book and specs.
BTW - I did a Google of SLC and found www.alexsautohaus.com . I'd pay them a visit but soft peddle the TVR/British car part b/c that generally means Lucas & carbs. On the other hand, a lot of mid-80s European cars (high and low end) used the same FI.
God luck - Grady
Houston.
Grady,Do you have the Bible, the manual and the FI insert? Not sure if they have the answer but from my read last night - lots of clues. Plus if you go to a shop, it's sometimes better to bring a copy of your book and specs.
BTW - I did a Google of SLC and found www.alexsautohaus.com . I'd pay them a visit but soft peddle the TVR/British car part b/c that generally means Lucas & carbs. On the other hand, a lot of mid-80s European cars (high and low end) used the same FI.
God luck - Grady
Houston.
i do have the manual, but don't have the bible or FI
check out this:
http://www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm#MFI09
and this:
http://www.ford-capri.fsnet.co.uk/whiterose/Inject...
and this:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/tech/fuel_injection/k_...
these cars often suffer from non-use, especially the fuel distributor, as it works mechanical and even the slightest rust or dirt in the system / on the pistons will bring it to fail. often only helps a replacement or an expensive overhaul from a specialist.
also porsche used the k-jetronic in the 924, VW in the first GolfGTI, also mercedes and volvo...so its not a typical "ford" issue.
but now back to your problem:
have you ever checked the valve-clearances..as if they are too tight (what often happens using unleaded) the engine will not idle, too!!! and do not trust any adhitives. check the clearances and report what you found!!!
http://www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm#MFI09
and this:
http://www.ford-capri.fsnet.co.uk/whiterose/Inject...
and this:
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/tech/fuel_injection/k_...
these cars often suffer from non-use, especially the fuel distributor, as it works mechanical and even the slightest rust or dirt in the system / on the pistons will bring it to fail. often only helps a replacement or an expensive overhaul from a specialist.
also porsche used the k-jetronic in the 924, VW in the first GolfGTI, also mercedes and volvo...so its not a typical "ford" issue.
but now back to your problem:
have you ever checked the valve-clearances..as if they are too tight (what often happens using unleaded) the engine will not idle, too!!! and do not trust any adhitives. check the clearances and report what you found!!!
Edited by Comadis on Friday 2nd May 00:27
Edited by Comadis on Friday 2nd May 22:28
Jeremy
Rereading this thread...
If not too late, treat yourself to a high-end, digital, auto-ranging, beeping, multi-meter - $65-$100 and if you every have to do real (110/220 volt) electrical work, get one that measures induction amp loads. Some of the best money you'll ever spend and it will last forever - just make sure the batteries don't corrode, leak and ruin it. (BTW - Radio Shack also sells a nifty fold-up one for about $20.00 that is great for emergency trouble shooting - fits in a boat or Wedge glove box.)
Then get a bunch of 36" leads with alligator clips on either end (radio shack has them too). That way you can work 1) from known ground and power (the battery) and 2) clip on to hard to reach connections without climbing into or under the engine bay. For instance you can set the multi-meter on windshield and watch the volt values as you crank the engine from inside.
I got the "TVR service Manual" and the BOSCH K-Jetronic hand-out (about 20 pages) from the NA TVR club.
The "Bible" is Steve Heath's TVR Wedges. Get it from the NA TVR club or from Steve directly (a quick search will get you the site). A must.
But at this point - I'd take the car a shop that specializes in older Volvos, VW, BMWs etc. and let them troubleshoot it. Basically it's a mid-70s design with mid-80s parts and they will have seen the problems before. The diagnosis shouldn't be too bad $$$ wise (get a fixed price or range), the cost of repair might be a bit steeper but might be something you can do once you understand the problem. If you can't find one - contact your local BMW club and explain the problem (that it's a Bosch FI system not that it's a TVR) and you have limited $$$. My experience is they help you hook up with someone honest.
Let us know what you find - this forum is an incredible resource!
Grady
Rereading this thread...
If not too late, treat yourself to a high-end, digital, auto-ranging, beeping, multi-meter - $65-$100 and if you every have to do real (110/220 volt) electrical work, get one that measures induction amp loads. Some of the best money you'll ever spend and it will last forever - just make sure the batteries don't corrode, leak and ruin it. (BTW - Radio Shack also sells a nifty fold-up one for about $20.00 that is great for emergency trouble shooting - fits in a boat or Wedge glove box.)
Then get a bunch of 36" leads with alligator clips on either end (radio shack has them too). That way you can work 1) from known ground and power (the battery) and 2) clip on to hard to reach connections without climbing into or under the engine bay. For instance you can set the multi-meter on windshield and watch the volt values as you crank the engine from inside.
I got the "TVR service Manual" and the BOSCH K-Jetronic hand-out (about 20 pages) from the NA TVR club.
The "Bible" is Steve Heath's TVR Wedges. Get it from the NA TVR club or from Steve directly (a quick search will get you the site). A must.
But at this point - I'd take the car a shop that specializes in older Volvos, VW, BMWs etc. and let them troubleshoot it. Basically it's a mid-70s design with mid-80s parts and they will have seen the problems before. The diagnosis shouldn't be too bad $$$ wise (get a fixed price or range), the cost of repair might be a bit steeper but might be something you can do once you understand the problem. If you can't find one - contact your local BMW club and explain the problem (that it's a Bosch FI system not that it's a TVR) and you have limited $$$. My experience is they help you hook up with someone honest.
Let us know what you find - this forum is an incredible resource!
Grady
Forums | Wedges | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff