123-Tune ignition on Rover V8

[ITVRI]

Has anyone on here purchased a 123 Tune distributor for their Rover V8 TVR?
They are on sale at Rimmer Brothers this month for £400 which makes them a very viable option in my eyes.
How did you find it to install and program? Did you purchase the Bluetooth with single map or usb/Windows Version with 2 map settings?

I’m on the original 14cux (Joolz reprogrammed) with a turbo install which seems to do the job well but I would like more control over the ignition curb when on boost.
I’ve arrived at the 123 Tune over other ignition options mainly because they are programmable and appear an easy install without the need for additional trigger wheels, coil packs, edis and sensor installation.

[900T-R]

Have run one on my 4.3 for the past four years or so and found nothing to complain about. Full control over ignition mapping via USB (and now there's a Bluetooth version, too) and super easy to work software (draw your rpm- and vacuum(/boost) based curves and you're off). Spark balancing function noticeably optimises and smoothes out performance and you get a very nicely made dfistributor to replace your manky old Lucas unit. Oh, and with just one extra wire (switch to ground) you can switch between two maps, i.e. 97 and 95 octane fuel, or petrol or LPG.

The one caveat is that the internal impedance of your ignition coil must be within a certain bandwidth to work properly with the 123ignition 'distributor' or you might get high RPM misfiring. The Bosch coil I got from ACT several years ago (to replace an Intermotor one that was on the car ) has always been good as gold for me.

After half an hour's worth of RR road mapping my engine went from a maximum of 274 hp @ 5,500 rpm to 300 hp @ 6,000 rpm, with a big fat gain over all of the 5-6K rpm band we chose to try a power run on. That was quite impressive, the only way I can explain this is that the ignition finally brought the hidden potential in the breathing mods on this engine (twin carbon plenum, ACT manifolds w/decats etc.) to life. YMMV

[ITVRI]

Thanks for the feedback 900T-R. My delima is that with the Bluetooth model you can diagnose and change the settings via Bluetooth on your phone but if the Bluetooth standard changes over the next 4-5 years would having a laptop and cable be more of an advantage in the long term. Also the Bluetooth model (Tune +) has only got one map.

Edited by ITVRI on Tuesday 8th May 22:43

[spikep]

Do you have a link or the part number from Rinmers site?
As I’m interested as well.

[ITVRI]

Here it is.
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RB7459E123
This is for the USB Version. The Bluetooth one is around £10 more.
Which would you prefer

[spitfire4v8]

They seem ok, Ive mapped a turbo car with one on but the owner is now going aftermarket ecu.

My experience was that they do some things well, in that you can control the mechanical advance part of the mapping well enough, but the vacuum bit isn't a true load v revs map it's purely a trim based on the inlet vacuum, which means that a some revs/vacuum you might need a certain trim level, but that same vacuum at a different revs might need a different trim level, which you can't do.

They also seem to have completely missed a trick by not making it truly live mappable. You can apply a trim whilst running the engine, but you have to write down what you've done, switch the engine off, apply the new info, restart the engine and go again.

In short whilst it might look attractive, and keeps the OE look you have some shortcomings

it's not truly live mappable
you still have a limit on max advance because of cross firing
the vacuum advance feature needs to be a 3d map of load v revs not just a trim based on inlet vacuum
it's clunky to map meaning what you've saved on buying it over say an ignition only ecu is partly offset by lengthened mapping time, and you're still left with a compromised solution in my opinion.

I know the OP is turbo so things are different, but I've recently put up a bit of info about ignition advance on my site .. anyone using a relatively standard car is deluding themselves if they think mapped ignition is going to unleash the beast ..

http://kitsandclassics.co.uk/recent-news/

[900T-R]

Indeed we found that, after having settled on a maximum of 33 degrees total advance on the 98 RON map, going back to 29 degrees for the 95 RON setting didn't make the power go off a cliff so we felt going back to the high octane map to see if we could find even more power by using more advance still would be a waste of time.

Still, the RR results were what they were and the only thing that was changed was the ignition.

I've since sort of reverse engineered the lump and apart from some detailed porting work on the heads, forged pistons, a static c.r. that's probably in the 10-10.5:1 range and a lightened/balanced rotating assembly there's nothing especially clever going on there. At the time, the cam was a Piper 285, standard sized valves, double valve springs and OE rocker gear.

Something else must have been at play here, and it make me wonder how far from optimal the (at that time) 125,000 mile old mechanical Lucas distributor was at that point. The spark balancing feature might have been responsible for the odd horsepower, but surely not for the full amount, on a relatively fresh rebuild with pretty evenly matched cylinders...

[spikep]

900T-R said:

Something else must have been at play here, and it make me wonder how far from optimal the (at that time) 125,000 mile old mechanical Lucas distributor was at that point. The spark balancing feature might have been responsible for the odd horsepower, but surely not for the full amount, on a relatively fresh rebuild with pretty evenly matched cylinders...

What is the spark balancing feature?
I just want to get a spark all the time without misfires

[blitzracing]

You have a problem at high RPM that you dont have enough dwell time to get the coil fully charged, so the HT starts to drop off. I think spark balancing is simply a balance between spark duration against dwell period in the available time between spark cycles as something has to give. It does not matter much below 4.5 k but above that you run out of dwell to maintain peak HT. The shape of the rotor and the way the amp works have already optimised things on the Lucas set up, so I doubt the 123 will do any better. As Scotty says in Star Trek , "you cannny change the laws of physics".

[900T-R]

blitzracing said:

You have a problem at high RPM that you dont have enough dwell time to get the coil fully charged, so the HT starts to drop off. I think spark balancing is simply a balance between spark duration against dwell period in the available time between spark cycles as something has to give. It does not matter much below 4.5 k but above that you run out of dwell to maintain peak HT. The shape of the rotor and the way the amp works have already optimised things on the Lucas set up, so I doubt the 123 will do any better. As Scotty says in Star Trek , "you cannny change the laws of physics".

Isn't what you describe known as 'automatic dwell control'? Spark balancing I understand to be a timing based-function in that it individually adjusts ignition timing for each cylinder based on flywheel (camshaft) acceleration rates between the firing of each cylinder.

[blitzracing]

Quite possibly- I think the system Im thinking of is constant energy. So we are thinking the 123 is smart enough to pick up the timing shift between the 4 trigger pulses per revolution to detect drop in crank speed and tweak the timing to optimise the power? I know the later Lucas Sagen system does this for misfire detection, but it has a lovely pulse train to measure from the crank position sensor and flywheel starter ring as a very accurate reference to measure against.

[900T-R]

blitzracing said:

So we are thinking the 123 is smart enough to pick up the timing shift between the 4 trigger pulses per revolution to detect drop in crank speed and tweak the timing to optimise the power?

That's quite literally what the manufacturer says it does. I've interviewed them back when I was a tech ed for an aftermarket magazine and they were quite secretive about how they do it, however.

[blitzracing]

Pity they don't make more of that then- as far as I can see from the web site they simply say the spark balance is within .5 of a degree- in in my eyes that's timing scatter control more than active timing adjustment.

[OleVix]

I'm considering this myself for the 5.0 v8d engine in my griff. That will rev to 6k at least. Wont the 123 be able to keep up? Shirley it must be better than the std rover dizzy?

[Steve_D]

OleVix said:

I'm considering this myself for the 5.0 v8d engine in my griff. That will rev to 6k at least. Wont the 123 be able to keep up? Shirley it must be better than the std rover dizzy?

It may be but the coil probably won't.
No doubt the timing of the sparks will be more accurate and the timing will be better controlled but you are still using one coil which has to 'charge up' between each spark so 6k revs does not give it much of a chance.

Which is why trigger wheels and coil packs give more scope.

Steve

ETA Megajolt complete kit including ignition leads, coil packs the lot £400
http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/p90...

Edited by Steve_D on Thursday 24th January 22:53

[900T-R]

Some coils aren't able to keep up and misfiring at high rpm can occur. I've had no such problems with the Bosch coil I got from ACT. As long as you have enough, you have enough and no amount of excess energy from the coil(s) will give you more power...

[spikep]

I do like the idea of getting rid of the distributer.
How would the mega jolt fit?

[stevesprint]

OleVix said:

I'm considering this myself for the 5.0 v8d engine in my griff. That will rev to 6k at least. Wont the 123 be able to keep up? Shirley it must be better than the std rover dizzy?

I've got a 123 on my 4.3 and it has no trouble revving up to my 6,250prm rev limiter