A Handling Headache
Discussion
Hoping to get some wisdom here with where to go next in sorting this as ive reached a bit of a dead end.
Ive not had my 2012 BR-Z too long and its been a great car so far but there is something is starting to really spoil the enjoyment that has steadily gotten worse that I cant seem to rectify. That is the steering and handling behaviour, where its will self centre quite a lot from the right but not very much from the left. So that it feels like there is a lot more steering assist to the left and not as much to the right. It makes steering the car a bit vague and not confidence inspiring, especially on a nice B road where this car has always been lovely to drive - now it's a bit frustrating. Like theres more grip on one side of the car.
Ive done a separate post on this as wasn't sure if it was down to an incorrect alignment (now confirmed its spot on) I had the alignment adjusted with camber bolts in order to stop the car tramlining so much and to feel more stable on the motorway. While this has worked it also feels a bit numb to steer between 11-12 o'clock on the wheel and left turns dont offer much feedback through the steering.
So far ive changed the front drop links, new front tyres (Michelin PS5s), new rubber boots on the lower control arm bushings and had the above alignment and had not one or two...but three! separate garages confirm that my suspension, bushes and steering linkages upfront are in good order! Yes mad I know....
A solution I can think of is to remove the camber bolts and return to stock values even though im only currently on -1.5 degree of negative camber with zero toe all around. I dont buy the idea though that the issue is being caused by the crown in the road though.
On the rear suspension there is a knock from small jolts in the road but no leakages or damage seen. Ive been advised this would not affect the steering behaviour. So the only candidates I can think of is that this is not true and the rear struts would affect the steering/handling. The other being my rear tyres are now down to about 3mm of tread (Michelin PS4s) Tyre pressures are also even all around.
Either that or there is an issue with the EPAS itself (unlikely) or that my shock absorbers are actually knackered all around as my car has now covered 72K on the original shocks and springs. They do seem a bit harsh over bumps at times but I put this down to it being a sporty car. This is a costly solution though which is a bit of a stab in the dark.
Is there anyone else who has had the same experience on a car and what would be a good route to go down next. Ive even contemplated started all over again and going down the route of coilovers which seems a bit extreme but will give me loads of adjustability to try and sort this out.
Ive not had my 2012 BR-Z too long and its been a great car so far but there is something is starting to really spoil the enjoyment that has steadily gotten worse that I cant seem to rectify. That is the steering and handling behaviour, where its will self centre quite a lot from the right but not very much from the left. So that it feels like there is a lot more steering assist to the left and not as much to the right. It makes steering the car a bit vague and not confidence inspiring, especially on a nice B road where this car has always been lovely to drive - now it's a bit frustrating. Like theres more grip on one side of the car.
Ive done a separate post on this as wasn't sure if it was down to an incorrect alignment (now confirmed its spot on) I had the alignment adjusted with camber bolts in order to stop the car tramlining so much and to feel more stable on the motorway. While this has worked it also feels a bit numb to steer between 11-12 o'clock on the wheel and left turns dont offer much feedback through the steering.
So far ive changed the front drop links, new front tyres (Michelin PS5s), new rubber boots on the lower control arm bushings and had the above alignment and had not one or two...but three! separate garages confirm that my suspension, bushes and steering linkages upfront are in good order! Yes mad I know....
A solution I can think of is to remove the camber bolts and return to stock values even though im only currently on -1.5 degree of negative camber with zero toe all around. I dont buy the idea though that the issue is being caused by the crown in the road though.
On the rear suspension there is a knock from small jolts in the road but no leakages or damage seen. Ive been advised this would not affect the steering behaviour. So the only candidates I can think of is that this is not true and the rear struts would affect the steering/handling. The other being my rear tyres are now down to about 3mm of tread (Michelin PS4s) Tyre pressures are also even all around.
Either that or there is an issue with the EPAS itself (unlikely) or that my shock absorbers are actually knackered all around as my car has now covered 72K on the original shocks and springs. They do seem a bit harsh over bumps at times but I put this down to it being a sporty car. This is a costly solution though which is a bit of a stab in the dark.
Is there anyone else who has had the same experience on a car and what would be a good route to go down next. Ive even contemplated started all over again and going down the route of coilovers which seems a bit extreme but will give me loads of adjustability to try and sort this out.
AdamG_BRZ said:
shtu said:
Possibly a reaction to road camber.
Try driving on the opposite side of the road - where safe! - and see if there is any change.
I managed to try this recently. No change im afraid however it is slightly better if you drive down the middle!?Try driving on the opposite side of the road - where safe! - and see if there is any change.
Can you try to measure height from wheel centre to some solid fixed point like strut top and compare side to side on level ground?
I'd say very unlikely a spring or shock issue.
Steering UJ could cause a stiffness and perhaps unwilling to self centre. As could a strut top mount bearing. Yes Castor angle will too, but presumably you've checked and that's all ok, and other than a bang at one corner, it shouldn't really change.
Steering unit....not sure on that, I guess it could go wonky one side or the other. Does it give any data as to how much force or current is being used one side or the other if it is fully electric ?
Steering UJ could cause a stiffness and perhaps unwilling to self centre. As could a strut top mount bearing. Yes Castor angle will too, but presumably you've checked and that's all ok, and other than a bang at one corner, it shouldn't really change.
Steering unit....not sure on that, I guess it could go wonky one side or the other. Does it give any data as to how much force or current is being used one side or the other if it is fully electric ?
I'm not sure I'd rule out the EPAS. If it were implemented using the old-school technology of a DC motor (which it won't be), then you'd have to reverse the armature voltage to provide assistance in the other direction and the control electronics could be faulty in one direction and not the other. It seems likely that something similar, but more complicated, could happen with the control electronics actually used in your car.
stevieturbo said:
I'd say very unlikely a spring or shock issue.
Steering UJ could cause a stiffness and perhaps unwilling to self centre. As could a strut top mount bearing. Yes Castor angle will too, but presumably you've checked and that's all ok, and other than a bang at one corner, it shouldn't really change.
Steering unit....not sure on that, I guess it could go wonky one side or the other. Does it give any data as to how much force or current is being used one side or the other if it is fully electric ?
No unfortunately no data. BRZ modules seem to be quite basic.Steering UJ could cause a stiffness and perhaps unwilling to self centre. As could a strut top mount bearing. Yes Castor angle will too, but presumably you've checked and that's all ok, and other than a bang at one corner, it shouldn't really change.
Steering unit....not sure on that, I guess it could go wonky one side or the other. Does it give any data as to how much force or current is being used one side or the other if it is fully electric ?
A thought that crossed my mind is whether the rack might be loose. There is what feels like knocking underneath but so ive read, these have notoriously notchy suspension at low speeds and is quite common.
Yes caster angles all good and equal both sides but it honestly feels like ive got a lot less caster to the left as steering weight feels quite light.
E-bmw said:
This makes me wonder if your issue isn't springs being more "worn" on one side than the other.
Can you try to measure height from wheel centre to some solid fixed point like strut top and compare side to side on level ground?
To me this does sound plausible, i have seen a bit of corrosion on them too but not loads.Can you try to measure height from wheel centre to some solid fixed point like strut top and compare side to side on level ground?
Is it fair to say at 70k the shocks are likely needing to be refreshed?
Ill also post my alignment specs below
Front Camber
L-1.37 / R-1.34
Caster
L 5.44 / R 5.53
Front Toe
0.00 both sides
Rear Camber
L-1.24 / -1.33
Rear Toe
L 0.06 / R 0.05
Thrust Angle 0
Those figures seem ideal but to me the car just feels off. Unless something has moved out of spec since.
Reviving this again as its still ongoing and have a few thoughts re the alignment.
I noticed that it is at 0 degrees toe upfront. Investigating things like steering feeling off and dead spots has revealed that some find this the case when the wheels upfront are at zero toe angle and some actually advise a small amount of Toe in on rear wheel drive cars.
I understand that toe in can make the steering feel more stable at speed and wander less.
Is it plausible that while I am at zero toe, due to worn suspension components somewhere that I am actually toe-ing out which is making the steering feel slightly loose and lifeless?
Or is it general rule that neutral toe angles upfront are the what is ideal. All im hoping to achieve is the directness and weight behind the steering again that used to be there aswell as the same amount of self-centring on both sides.
I noticed that it is at 0 degrees toe upfront. Investigating things like steering feeling off and dead spots has revealed that some find this the case when the wheels upfront are at zero toe angle and some actually advise a small amount of Toe in on rear wheel drive cars.
I understand that toe in can make the steering feel more stable at speed and wander less.
Is it plausible that while I am at zero toe, due to worn suspension components somewhere that I am actually toe-ing out which is making the steering feel slightly loose and lifeless?
Or is it general rule that neutral toe angles upfront are the what is ideal. All im hoping to achieve is the directness and weight behind the steering again that used to be there aswell as the same amount of self-centring on both sides.
When aligning both of my track day cars (done by an allegedly pretty good place) I was told that a small amount of toe out is preferred as it makes the steering more responsive.
It was explained to me as follows.
If you imagine you are looking at the car from above in a corner, the inside wheel is always describing a tighter corner than the outside wheel, so if toe is neutral the inside wheel will be scrubbing more.
With toe-out the inside wheel is scrubbing less so grips better giving more steering precision & feel.
At the same place I was told that toe-in is for more steering stability.
It was explained to me as follows.
If you imagine you are looking at the car from above in a corner, the inside wheel is always describing a tighter corner than the outside wheel, so if toe is neutral the inside wheel will be scrubbing more.
With toe-out the inside wheel is scrubbing less so grips better giving more steering precision & feel.
At the same place I was told that toe-in is for more steering stability.
E-bmw said:
When aligning both of my track day cars (done by an allegedly pretty good place) I was told that a small amount of toe out is preferred as it makes the steering more responsive.
It was explained to me as follows.
If you imagine you are looking at the car from above in a corner, the inside wheel is always describing a tighter corner than the outside wheel, so if toe is neutral the inside wheel will be scrubbing more.
With toe-out the inside wheel is scrubbing less so grips better giving more steering precision & feel.
At the same place I was told that toe-in is for more steering stability.
Thats interesting as before my alignment I do feel that the steering felt nicer and offered more feedback. Does this apply for just the front?It was explained to me as follows.
If you imagine you are looking at the car from above in a corner, the inside wheel is always describing a tighter corner than the outside wheel, so if toe is neutral the inside wheel will be scrubbing more.
With toe-out the inside wheel is scrubbing less so grips better giving more steering precision & feel.
At the same place I was told that toe-in is for more steering stability.
I had a small amount of toe out each side but since its been set to zero on the front wheels, I do think there is a bit of a dead spot (especially once the tyres are up to temperature)
However on my model of car, apparently the correct alignment spec is Zero toe up front and a small amount of toe in at the rear.
I was always under the impression that toe out on the front axle leads to dead spots in the steering and more pulling but this doesnt seem to be the case?
AdamG_BRZ said:
E-bmw said:
When aligning both of my track day cars (done by an allegedly pretty good place) I was told that a small amount of toe out is preferred as it makes the steering more responsive.
It was explained to me as follows.
If you imagine you are looking at the car from above in a corner, the inside wheel is always describing a tighter corner than the outside wheel, so if toe is neutral the inside wheel will be scrubbing more.
With toe-out the inside wheel is scrubbing less so grips better giving more steering precision & feel.
At the same place I was told that toe-in is for more steering stability.
However on my model of car, apparently the correct alignment spec is Zero toe up front and a small amount of toe in at the rear.It was explained to me as follows.
If you imagine you are looking at the car from above in a corner, the inside wheel is always describing a tighter corner than the outside wheel, so if toe is neutral the inside wheel will be scrubbing more.
With toe-out the inside wheel is scrubbing less so grips better giving more steering precision & feel.
At the same place I was told that toe-in is for more steering stability.
As in "safe" handling traits for the "steering wheel attendant" rather than feel and response for a "driver", just my opinion obviously.
andygo said:
Is it possible that when you had the alignment done they just adjusted one track rod rather than both? They should be equal lengths on both sides.
They do appear to be the same length. I also had a good look under the car as have had some recent developments . In short the car now drives like an absolute pig, it no longer feels planted with very little steering feedback - feels very wafty and floaty. Admittedly the rears will need changing soon but i wouldnt this would be affecting things upfront - nonetheless ive had a look and the drivers side tie rod ends is now leaking grease and the boot is beginning to split however the left side looks ok where things appear loose?I am theorising here a bit now but im wondering if the tie rod ends are knackered however i gave everything a good shake when inspecting and used a pry bar where i could and everything seemed tight.
I'm not quite sure how to put it, but in trying to solve the problem with how your car steers, you seem to be looking at everything other than the steering.
A short tale:
When I got my old Merc coupe a few years back, I thought the back felt loose, especially in fast sweepers at legal motorway speeds. It was serviced by, and the problem reported to, a number of reputable Merc specialists and various suspension components were replaced, which improved things a little. Then the power steering got a bit stiff, so I started syringing out the fluid and replacing it with new. Not only did this cause the steering to be a bit lighter and freer moving, but the perceived handling problem was fixed too. I suspect the old fluid (which was black) had been causing something like a delay in the power assistance, perhaps making the steering go light after the lock had been applied which felt to me like the back-end was loose.
My conclusion from the above is that if the steering isn't working properly, it can cause one to think that there are all sorts of other issues with the car.
A short tale:
When I got my old Merc coupe a few years back, I thought the back felt loose, especially in fast sweepers at legal motorway speeds. It was serviced by, and the problem reported to, a number of reputable Merc specialists and various suspension components were replaced, which improved things a little. Then the power steering got a bit stiff, so I started syringing out the fluid and replacing it with new. Not only did this cause the steering to be a bit lighter and freer moving, but the perceived handling problem was fixed too. I suspect the old fluid (which was black) had been causing something like a delay in the power assistance, perhaps making the steering go light after the lock had been applied which felt to me like the back-end was loose.
My conclusion from the above is that if the steering isn't working properly, it can cause one to think that there are all sorts of other issues with the car.
Someone has already suggested the column U joints-
You need to take the column u-joints off and inspect for any binding.
If they are only just starting to get stiff, you will not be able to diagnose with them on the car as the leverage from the wheel/assistance will largely overcome it.
When my fathers car seized the lower one, once I had it off the car it was impossible to move by hand.
You need to take the column u-joints off and inspect for any binding.
If they are only just starting to get stiff, you will not be able to diagnose with them on the car as the leverage from the wheel/assistance will largely overcome it.
When my fathers car seized the lower one, once I had it off the car it was impossible to move by hand.
chris1roll said:
Someone has already suggested the column U joints-
You need to take the column u-joints off and inspect for any binding.
If they are only just starting to get stiff, you will not be able to diagnose with them on the car as the leverage from the wheel/assistance will largely overcome it.
When my fathers car seized the lower one, once I had it off the car it was impossible to move by hand.
These seem ok. Ive had a good look around and appears to be pretty sturdy. Id also be surprised as these arent known to fail.You need to take the column u-joints off and inspect for any binding.
If they are only just starting to get stiff, you will not be able to diagnose with them on the car as the leverage from the wheel/assistance will largely overcome it.
When my fathers car seized the lower one, once I had it off the car it was impossible to move by hand.
Im not finding the whole steering now feels wafty and not precise…like im driving on over inflated tyres.
Im
Wondering now if the track rods or ball joints are shot as something does feel loose upfront, the whole car wanders a bit at motorway speeds so possibly worn rear tyres may be exaggerating the problem.
Just very frustrating that ive had three reputable grages check everything over to find nothing, im almost that do actually find something wrong so that i know its not just me imagining it.
Forums | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff