British Fighters

[DieselGriff]

Wasn't too sure where to post this, it could have easily gone into another forum if I didn't mention models but I suppose modelling them is the idea hopefully in here will work.

Say I was thinking of a new modelling theme of British fighters through the years or eras, what would I choose, the idea being that the model was representative of it's time in terms of materials and design.

Working backwards from today

Typhoon (have 1:48th)
Tornado F3
Lightening\Hunter\Phantom? (have Lightning and Phantom 1:48th, Hunter available not sure about 1:48th)
Javelin\Hunter?
Vampire (available in 1:72nd not sure other scales)
Meteor (available in a number of scales)
Spitfire IX (have in 1:48th)
Spitfire I (have in 1:48th)
Hurricane (have in 1:48th)
Fury


Sopworth Camel\Bristol Bulldog



As you can see I'm a bit stuck n places.

I'd appreciate your views also any updates on kit availability (and yes I will use google\hannants but also interested in points of view)

[Eric Mc]

DieselGriff said:

Wasn't too sure where to post this, it could have easily gone into another forum if I didn't mention models but I suppose modelling them is the idea hopefully in here will work.

Say I was thinking of a new modelling theme of British fighters through the years or eras, what would I choose, the idea being that the model was representative of it's time in terms of materials and design.

Working backwards from today

Typhoon (have 1:48th)
Tornado F3
Lightening\Hunter\Phantom? (have Lightning and Phantom 1:48th, Hunter available not sure about 1:48th)
Javelin\Hunter?
Vampire (available in 1:72nd not sure other scales)
Meteor (available in a number of scales)
Spitfire IX (have in 1:48th)
Spitfire I (have in 1:48th)
Hurricane (have in 1:48th)
Fury


Sopworth Camel\Bristol Bulldog



As you can see I'm a bit stuck n places.

I'd appreciate your views also any updates on kit availability (and yes I will use google\hannants but also interested in points of view)

Most mainstream RAF fighters have been made available in 1/48 - although 1/72 gives an even bigger choice.
Although you mention "British Fighters", you list the Phantom in your selection. The Phantom was, of course, an American aircraft (although the version used by the RAF and Royal Navy were heavilly Angliscised). Speaking of the Royal Navy, I assume by "British" you aren't excluding naval fighters.

If you are, I would also include the Sea Vixen, Sea Fury, Seahawk, Sea Venom, Scimitar, Attacker, Seafire, Sea Hurricane, Fulamr, Firefly, Roc, Skua, Osprey, Flycatcher plus others.

On the RAF front, I would also include the Venom - both single seat and two seat variants, the Mosquito fighter variants, the Hornet and Swift.
Pre-war, as well as the Fury and Bulldog you have the Gauntlet, Gladiator, Grebe, and Gamecock.

WW1, for the RFC you could also include the SE5A, Dolphin, Snipe, FE2b, Vickers Gunbus, Bristol Scout, Bristol F2b and DH2. If you want to include Naval Aviation, don't forget the Royal Naval Air Service who instigated the Sopwith line of fighters which, apart from the Camel, also included the 1 1/2 Strutter, Pup and Triplane.

Most of these aircraft have been available in model form in one scale or another. The more obscure tend to be either vacforms, resin or short run injection moulded. Some would also be out of production.

As I said earlier, you would have a better overall chance of completing such a project in 1/72 scale.

Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 22 August 16:46

[dr_gn]

That's an interesting project.

I'd agree with Eric that 1/72 is by far your best bet in terms of availability, time to build and space required.

I'm not sure I agree with Eric's list, based purely on your definition "...representative of it's time in terms of materials and design"

The FE2b, Vickers Gunbus,and DH2 are all very similar in terms of design and era, although I'd agree one should be in the list.

The Roc and Skua are too similar to have both, as are the Fulmar and Firefly. You could say that you'd only need one of those four.

No Swordfish?

The Seahawk, Scimitar and Attacker are all pretty similar and from the same era, I'd choose the Attacker as it was the first jet fighter for the fleet Air Arm.

Then again, I guess you'll get as many lists as people you ask!

[Eric Mc]

I don't think the Swordfish would be classed as a "fighter" (although the RAF used all black radar equipped versions for "unusual" missions off the south coast).

If he's only after "representative" aircraft rather than a comprehebnsive list, then he might as well chose only one out of the Vampire, Venom and Sea Vizen (on the basis that the Attacker and the Scimitar are the same).

At least with a more complete list he camn chose what to leave out.

I don't understand why the Phantom was included.

If he wants American fighters in British useage there is a whole host of aircraft that could be added to the list.

[dr_gn]

Eric Mc said:

I don't think the Swordfish would be classed as a "fighter" (although the RAF used all black radar equipped versions for "unusual" missions off the south coast).

If he's only after "representative" aircraft rather than a comprehebnsive list, then he might as well chose only one out of the Vampire, Venom and Sea Vizen (on the basis that the Attacker and the Scimitar are the same).

At least with a more complete list he camn chose what to leave out.

I don't understand why the Phantom was included.

If he wants American fighters in British useage there is a whole host of aircraft that could be added to the list.

Hmm. Two Spitfires and a Hurricane too...you could get away with one Spitfire, or at least make it a Mk1 and a Mk22/24 or Seafire.

Whichever way you look at it it would be one hell of an undertaking. It would take me years and years to complete it.

It might be a better idea to take the most 'significant' fighter from each decade? Or was that indeed the idea? Are we limited to 10 or 11 models?

Edited by dr_gn on Sunday 22 August 19:13

[Eric Mc]

I don't think he realises the enormity of the task.

I've been making models on these type of principles for decades and I'm still nowhere near a comprehensive collection.

[DieselGriff]

Thanks for the responses.

I don't think it's a huge task, I'm not wanting to represent every aircraft just one that represents its era - the list is of course as long as the number of opinions, but I think 1-2 aircraft from each decade would be "about right", although I certainly wouldn't limit myself or miss out whole decades if not much of interest happened.

The reason for including the Phantom is that it was used fairly extensively by the RAF in the 70's and 80's and whilst the RAF used a number of American types in it's history non were used as exclusively as the F4, including the Sabre.(and it was the first military aircraft I sat in aged about 5 so I'm biased).

I think the history of the RAF can be (very) loosely represented by a collection of 15-20 aircraft that tell the story of their time, that's what I'm trying to achieve.

[dr_gn]

I guess you should include the Harrier - Falklands War and all that.

[DieselGriff]

dr_gn said:

I guess you should include the Harrier - Falklands War and all that.

Good point but I was thinking more along the lines of the RAF rather than the RN.

[Yertis]

DieselGriff said:

dr_gn said:

I guess you should include the Harrier - Falklands War and all that.

Good point but I was thinking more along the lines of the RAF rather than the RN.

That's wise because you can represent the early years with just a Bristol Fighter and a Bulldog, avoiding all those stick and string RFC jobs.

BrisFit
Bulldog
Gladiator
Hurricane
Spitfire V
Tempest
Meteor
Javelin
Hunter
Lightning
Phantom
Tornado F3
Typhoon

There you go, job done

I agree you need a Phantom even though it's a US design. I've ignored Mosquito, Harrier and Jaguar because they're bombers really, at least not designed with air to air as their primary mission.

[Eric Mc]

DieselGriff said:

dr_gn said:

I guess you should include the Harrier - Falklands War and all that.

Good point but I was thinking more along the lines of the RAF rather than the RN.

The RAF GR3s were there too. Although the GR3 is a bomber.

Edited by Eric Mc on Sunday 22 August 22:37

[SlipStream77]

I can recommend the 1/48 Revell Sopwith Camel, I built one a while ago. It's a simple kit but it looks good when it's finished.





http://www.emodels.co.uk/plastic-kits/revell-sopwi...

Regarding your project, I think Yertis has a good list, although I would add the Camel.

[Eric Mc]

Here's my list decade by decade

1910-20 - Sopwith Camel
1920-30 - Gloster Gamecock or Grebe
1930-40 - Hawker Fury
1940-50 - Supermarine Spitfire
1950-60 - Hawker Hunter
1960-70 - English Electric Lightning
1970-80 - BAe Sea Harrier FRS1
1980-90 - PANAVIA Tornado F3
1990-00 - BAe Sea Harrier FA2
2000-10 - Eurofighter Typhoon

I've left out the Phantom as it is too "American" for a British list.

With the exception of the Gamecock/Grebe, all the rest are relatively easy to obtain in 1/72. Unfortunately, the period between the wars is poorly represented in model form.

[Yertis]

Eric Mc said:

Here's my list decade by decade

1910-20 - Sopwith Camel
1920-30 - Gloster Gamecock or Grebe
1930-40 - Hawker Fury
1940-50 - Supermarine Spitfire
1950-60 - Hawker Hunter
1960-70 - English Electric Lightning
1970-80 - BAe Sea Harrier FRS1
1980-90 - PANAVIA Tornado F3
1990-00 - BAe Sea Harrier FA2
2000-10 - Eurofighter Typhoon

I've left out the Phantom as it is too "American" for a British list.

With the exception of the Gamecock/Grebe, all the rest are relatively easy to obtain in 1/72. Unfortunately, the period between the wars is poorly represented in model form.

I'd have to question the ommission of the F4M, it was a uniquely British aircraft and a much more important component in the British air arm than the Sea Harrier which didn't enter service until the very late '70s. Also the Tornado F3 wasn't in squadron service until the mid-late '80s.

[Eric Mc]

I was trying to keep the list to British designed (or consortium aircraft where Britain played a lead design role). I struggled with the 70s/80s as the Harrier was the only true British fighter aircraft designed in that era.

I'm still reluctant to include the British Phantoms as, to me, they were a politically cobbled together inferior modification to the original US design.

(I still like the British Phantoms all the same - but I don't think they belong in a list of "British" fighters - unless you are going to include American aircraft as well - which is an option to the OP as he could then look at Sabres and all those American aircraft used by the FAA in WW2).

The Tornado F2/3 entered service from around 1985.

[Yertis]

Good points well made. So would you include a P51D in a list of American fighter aircraft? British spec, US design, British engine?

[dr_gn]

Yertis said:

Good points well made. So would you include a P51D in a list of American fighter aircraft? British spec, US design, British engine?

IMO, for this list it's not significantly different from the Spitfire from that era. In fact I can't think of any American fighters from the WW2 era used by the RAF that were significantly different enough in design or concept (from British ones) to be included. OK the Mustang had greater range, but...that's about it.

Likewise the Sabre, not significantly different from the Swift or Hunter from the same era.

Also, I think he just wants RAF types, not FAA / RN.

[Yertis]

dr_gn said:

Yertis said:

Good points well made. So would you include a P51D in a list of American fighter aircraft? British spec, US design, British engine?

IMO, for this list it's not significantly different from the Spitfire from that era. In fact I can't think of any American fighters from the WW2 era used by the RAF that were significantly different enough in design or concept (from British ones) to be included. OK the Mustang had greater range, but...that's about it.

Likewise the Sabre, not significantly different from the Swift or Hunter from the same era.

Also, I think he just wants RAF types, not FAA / RN.

Yes I agree - I wouldn't consider for one moment putting it in the OPs list. But I was wondering if instead of a list of RAF fighters his were a list of USAAC/USAF fighters, would the Mustang be as insufficiently American for that list as the Phantom is insufficiently British for Eric's version of the list.

[Eric Mc]

Yertis said:

dr_gn said:

Yertis said:

Good points well made. So would you include a P51D in a list of American fighter aircraft? British spec, US design, British engine?

IMO, for this list it's not significantly different from the Spitfire from that era. In fact I can't think of any American fighters from the WW2 era used by the RAF that were significantly different enough in design or concept (from British ones) to be included. OK the Mustang had greater range, but...that's about it.

Likewise the Sabre, not significantly different from the Swift or Hunter from the same era.

Also, I think he just wants RAF types, not FAA / RN.

Yes I agree - I wouldn't consider for one moment putting it in the OPs list. But I was wondering if instead of a list of RAF fighters his were a list of USAAC/USAF fighters, would the Mustang be as insufficiently American for that list as the Phantom is insufficiently British for Eric's version of the list.

I wouldn't include a Mustang (even a Rolls Royce engined version) as its design is very American. Remember, the Mustang was built on spec by NAA because they thought they could build a better fighter than the Curtiss P-40, which the British had already ordered in large numbers.

As far as I know, ALL Mustangs and Phantoms were built in their entirety in the US.

[Yertis]

I wouldn't put a P51 in the OPs list! I was just saying, if you don't put a Phantom in a UK list, would you put a P51 in a US list? There's no right answer.

Weirdly I'm having an almost identical discussion at work right now in relation to one of our clients. Iconic miltary aircraft of the last 40 years?