4X4 Esprit -- Question for Kylie (and others)
Discussion
Did a second track day in the Espri this past weekend with Ron Earp (see below). Ran in A group, one below the instructors. Was about mid-pack I'd say. As fast as most on the straights, but really had some trouble in the corners. Would push the front end under heavy throttle, and slide the rears in quick transitions (tires are Toyo RA-1s, only "mod" to the car at this point).
AND THEN -- I saw pictures of the car from the trackside photo service. Good lord the car rolls and leans. Kylie you were right, something is NOT right with that. Might be the "balance" between road and track Lotus built into the car but no track day car that leans like a mid 80s GMC sedan is going to use its maximum cornering potential.
I mean, this has got to be affecting the contact patch, and is probably why the car can be scary in transitions. It certainly seems undersprung.
So, I did some poking around for suspension modifications for a 93 SE. Marcus has a kit, springs and dampers, but it is not cheap (look like about $2k US). Anyone else done anything with the suspension? The car is trackable as is, but to really use the potential of the mid-engine, it needs some help I think.
Thanks guys (and girls).
Jeff
1993 Esprit
AND THEN -- I saw pictures of the car from the trackside photo service. Good lord the car rolls and leans. Kylie you were right, something is NOT right with that. Might be the "balance" between road and track Lotus built into the car but no track day car that leans like a mid 80s GMC sedan is going to use its maximum cornering potential.
I mean, this has got to be affecting the contact patch, and is probably why the car can be scary in transitions. It certainly seems undersprung.
So, I did some poking around for suspension modifications for a 93 SE. Marcus has a kit, springs and dampers, but it is not cheap (look like about $2k US). Anyone else done anything with the suspension? The car is trackable as is, but to really use the potential of the mid-engine, it needs some help I think.
Thanks guys (and girls).
Jeff
1993 Esprit
Hi, I am glad someone else has had the same issues as me. We put new springs in thinking that it should bring back the performance, which it did a little, but not great. The thing is its a fine line of what kind of ride you want for day to day driving and turning up to the track. For me I couldn't see my self tweaking adjustable suspension for track days, so have basically just tried to keep things like this stock on the car.
I noticed when I changed over the tires to the RA-1's, they are a much softer ride due to the compound and the profile being a little taller, so this has not helped the firmness of the ride as previously on the Bridgestone's.
With this in mind I spent heaps of time tweaking the tire pressures to get top performance out of them while at the track using a raytec infrared digital analyser - worked a treat. I watched a small video that Simon took of me going around a hair pin turn and couldn't believe how much noise I was making with the tires drifting. This was partly due to some young numpty at the shop telling me to increase my pressures for track days - WRONG these are track tires not boy racer firm thick tread tires!
I soon found other people using RA-1 tires, got talking to them and they were using as little as 25 front and 26psi rear on theirs (total weight of car depending), so I naturally went on a mission
I played around run after run on the track and dropped the pressures until the temperature across the tire surface were within 1-2 deg c. So all this adjusting pressures, new springs and new mintex pads made my lap times drop in huge amounts.
Wow, I feel more confident now that I have more tread touching the ground even with a bit of body roll. Some people thought my car had the boost turned up or was modified in some other way due to the lap times never reached before in other model esprits like mine. I said to them...no shes a stocker engine with a driver that got attitude ...watch ya back
So Jeff that my little theory, I would look at your tire pressures as well. Firmer suspension would be the business, but you don't want to lose your teeth or slip a disk from your back driving around town. Just a thought. Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Kylie
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 5th July 22:58
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 5th July 23:02
I noticed when I changed over the tires to the RA-1's, they are a much softer ride due to the compound and the profile being a little taller, so this has not helped the firmness of the ride as previously on the Bridgestone's.
With this in mind I spent heaps of time tweaking the tire pressures to get top performance out of them while at the track using a raytec infrared digital analyser - worked a treat. I watched a small video that Simon took of me going around a hair pin turn and couldn't believe how much noise I was making with the tires drifting. This was partly due to some young numpty at the shop telling me to increase my pressures for track days - WRONG these are track tires not boy racer firm thick tread tires!
I soon found other people using RA-1 tires, got talking to them and they were using as little as 25 front and 26psi rear on theirs (total weight of car depending), so I naturally went on a mission
I played around run after run on the track and dropped the pressures until the temperature across the tire surface were within 1-2 deg c. So all this adjusting pressures, new springs and new mintex pads made my lap times drop in huge amounts.
Wow, I feel more confident now that I have more tread touching the ground even with a bit of body roll. Some people thought my car had the boost turned up or was modified in some other way due to the lap times never reached before in other model esprits like mine. I said to them...no shes a stocker engine with a driver that got attitude ...watch ya back
So Jeff that my little theory, I would look at your tire pressures as well. Firmer suspension would be the business, but you don't want to lose your teeth or slip a disk from your back driving around town. Just a thought. Let me know what you think.
Cheers
Kylie
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 5th July 22:58
>> Edited by kylie on Monday 5th July 23:02
I'm up for working on this problem too. I don't think it can be too hard and can't be too expensive - as long as the parts don't say Lotus. Kylie, when you did the spring upgrade did you remember the rate you came from and the rate you went to?
I figure one way to work with the springs is to pull the stockers, measure them, and then call H&R and other folks to see what they have to offer. Some progressive rate springs would work well I think. I'm sure I need new dampers and these could be changed to compliment to springs.
I enjoyed the track but there was one section, uphill, at VIR that requires a relatively quick transition from a left turn to a right turn. You need to be on the throttle through this entire bit and the Esprit becomes quite unsettling with the speed that which this has to be done, no matter how smooth you are. It just has a lot of roll/lean.
I figure one way to work with the springs is to pull the stockers, measure them, and then call H&R and other folks to see what they have to offer. Some progressive rate springs would work well I think. I'm sure I need new dampers and these could be changed to compliment to springs.
I enjoyed the track but there was one section, uphill, at VIR that requires a relatively quick transition from a left turn to a right turn. You need to be on the throttle through this entire bit and the Esprit becomes quite unsettling with the speed that which this has to be done, no matter how smooth you are. It just has a lot of roll/lean.
Finally someone agrees with me on the pressures for the Toyos. Toyo itself says start at mid-30s and I think that is total crap. 30 at most, and I'll try your idea (mid to high 20s) next time I'm out. I agree that out to give more grip.
Two questions:
1. When you changed the springs, did you change the rate or did you stay stock? At a minimum, I think I am going to go with the S4s setup.
2. With the Mintex pads, can you order them straight from Mintex or did you have to mail in your pads for use as a model?
Ron, I ended up not running Sunday. Got up early to check my brake pads before I went to the track -- rears are gone, totally. Metal on metal. Oh well.
Kylie, I'll keep you posted on what I do the car. Ron and I would like to keep swapping information. I race a Triumph, so I only get the Lotus to the track a couple of times a year. Next fall is probably next outing. Hopefully whatever I do to the suspension, I'll do by then and can let you know what I think.
Thanks a bunch (especially for confirming I am right on the RA-1 tire pressures).
Ron you are aright. The uphill esses on the North Course are scary in the Esprit and can't be taken nearly as fast as most other cars.
Jeff
Two questions:
1. When you changed the springs, did you change the rate or did you stay stock? At a minimum, I think I am going to go with the S4s setup.
2. With the Mintex pads, can you order them straight from Mintex or did you have to mail in your pads for use as a model?
Ron, I ended up not running Sunday. Got up early to check my brake pads before I went to the track -- rears are gone, totally. Metal on metal. Oh well.
Kylie, I'll keep you posted on what I do the car. Ron and I would like to keep swapping information. I race a Triumph, so I only get the Lotus to the track a couple of times a year. Next fall is probably next outing. Hopefully whatever I do to the suspension, I'll do by then and can let you know what I think.
Thanks a bunch (especially for confirming I am right on the RA-1 tire pressures).
Ron you are aright. The uphill esses on the North Course are scary in the Esprit and can't be taken nearly as fast as most other cars.
Jeff
Hi guys, the new springs were stock replacements with a one inch chop that were precision cut by a specialist. So the measurements are just std there. Sorry not sure what the std specs are.
Jeff with the pads, I went to a local shop who manufactures these Mintex pads, and yes they need an old set of your backing plates, to save costs. Additionally you can tell them what model your backing plates are off and they will make them from there at an additional cost. Their website here www.0800brakes.co.nz/pg8.htm. If you scroll down I got package four. The pads are a locally manufactured compound with resin and steel, which is serious stuff and will eat your disks, but I am like you and don’t do it all the time so mine will last o.k as with the tyres too. You should have something similar over there like Pagids, was going to get these next. Meant to be similar in performance perhaps one would argue even better (not that I need any more performance). But if you ask around the shops they must have another variation of Mintex pads over there. Anyway if you email these guys they might be able to help.
Also yes get yourself a heat temperature probe or something that’s accurate, I am no expert but if I can tell the difference in performance and lap times drop then its saying something. You should be able to fly around those corners easy as. Plus up rate your pads and you can delay your braking even further, since you have the sticky’s to pull you in. J
Cheers
Kylie
Jeff with the pads, I went to a local shop who manufactures these Mintex pads, and yes they need an old set of your backing plates, to save costs. Additionally you can tell them what model your backing plates are off and they will make them from there at an additional cost. Their website here www.0800brakes.co.nz/pg8.htm. If you scroll down I got package four. The pads are a locally manufactured compound with resin and steel, which is serious stuff and will eat your disks, but I am like you and don’t do it all the time so mine will last o.k as with the tyres too. You should have something similar over there like Pagids, was going to get these next. Meant to be similar in performance perhaps one would argue even better (not that I need any more performance). But if you ask around the shops they must have another variation of Mintex pads over there. Anyway if you email these guys they might be able to help.
Also yes get yourself a heat temperature probe or something that’s accurate, I am no expert but if I can tell the difference in performance and lap times drop then its saying something. You should be able to fly around those corners easy as. Plus up rate your pads and you can delay your braking even further, since you have the sticky’s to pull you in. J
Cheers
Kylie
Jeff, cutting the springs was pretty much just for looks and not performance, there was some debate on here a while ago what chopping the springs would do to the performance. The old saying goes "don't #uck with the Lotus suspension or you will ruin it" but it was agreed that anything under an inch would be o.k. I can hardly notice the difference to be honest. My mechanic took them to a factory who actually makes springs from scratch and refurbishes old ones, so they know their stuff when it comes shortening them etc. I really don't know the process sorry.
Hopefully someone might be able to chim in how they do it over there.
Hopefully someone might be able to chim in how they do it over there.
Hey guys... been doing some tire (tyre) pressure playing as well. I know from running the MX-5 that tire pressure can make it or break it so to speak... I have BF Euro's on the Esprit (prefer Michelin - but hey... the tires were new when I bought the car) and I have found the 26lbs front and 27lbs rear do the trick. I have stock springs as well - not planning on changing anytime soon as I do not think there would be any great benifit. My Esprit rides just softer than a friends old F1 car now.
The pads are Hawk and I like them as I am used to them from the RX-7 and MX-5. The do not lock up very easily are affordable at Advance Auto here in town (just tell em'to match the old ones up) They seem to know what a Toyota is... and a Renault... they are never quite sure about the Lotus.
Anyway... play with the tire pressure. You will find the sweet spot.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
(1988 Turbo/injection)
PS: thought for the day:
"If you feel like you are in control of your car, well, you are just not going fast enough".
-Jim Clark / Team Lotus
>> Edited by autocross7 on Wednesday 7th July 05:01
The pads are Hawk and I like them as I am used to them from the RX-7 and MX-5. The do not lock up very easily are affordable at Advance Auto here in town (just tell em'to match the old ones up) They seem to know what a Toyota is... and a Renault... they are never quite sure about the Lotus.
Anyway... play with the tire pressure. You will find the sweet spot.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
(1988 Turbo/injection)
PS: thought for the day:
"If you feel like you are in control of your car, well, you are just not going fast enough".
-Jim Clark / Team Lotus
>> Edited by autocross7 on Wednesday 7th July 05:01
Hey Cameron, those pressures you have are what I run on mine, or what I have come down to, so that's great I must be doing something right! I am still making lots of noise through the chicaines and hair pin, so I rekon I could even drop 1-2 more.
**Dont ya just love that Lotus quote!
**Dont ya just love that Lotus quote!
Cameron, thanks for the advice. I will try those pressures. While I was dubious, I was running 33/35 per the Toyo website. Will change to 28/30 and then down to your settings.
Two questions on the brake pads:
1. Do you use Hawk blues or blacks?
2. I understand the front pads are from a 85 Toyota Celica GTS. Is that right? And the rears are what model Renault? Is it a LeCar?
Two questions on the brake pads:
1. Do you use Hawk blues or blacks?
2. I understand the front pads are from a 85 Toyota Celica GTS. Is that right? And the rears are what model Renault? Is it a LeCar?
Hey!
Kylie... I still sqeel a bit if I "over set" the car up for a curve. If I do it correctly I am just at the edge of creating that sqeel. I dropped about a half pound and went back up... car started feeling a bit to soft or something to me (I'm used to the MX-5 so it could be me).
Jeff... correct, the front is the same as the Toyota. The Hawk pads I have are the black ones. I have seen the blue, but the local shop did not stock them. I never tried them as I am happy with the black backed ones on all the cars I "track". Sorry to say I do not know what car the rears match up to... the parts store (believe it or not) crossed referenced them for me. now I'm in the computer so they know what to pull when I come in need 'em.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by autocross7 on Saturday 10th July 04:35
Kylie... I still sqeel a bit if I "over set" the car up for a curve. If I do it correctly I am just at the edge of creating that sqeel. I dropped about a half pound and went back up... car started feeling a bit to soft or something to me (I'm used to the MX-5 so it could be me).
Jeff... correct, the front is the same as the Toyota. The Hawk pads I have are the black ones. I have seen the blue, but the local shop did not stock them. I never tried them as I am happy with the black backed ones on all the cars I "track". Sorry to say I do not know what car the rears match up to... the parts store (believe it or not) crossed referenced them for me. now I'm in the computer so they know what to pull when I come in need 'em.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by autocross7 on Saturday 10th July 04:35
Hi Cameron, I went out for a total of 20 hot laps in a 944 today as a passenger and the guy was running bridgestone Potenza stickies, he pushed the car hard and had almost no noise. OK different cup of tea there being front wheel drive etc etc, but it is kinda good to compare notes on other cars too that have similar times to me.
If only we could run other tyres to compare, but there is really bugger all for us Stevens car owners unless we up rate to 17 inch rims. I think what it is with me is that I am pushing way too hard on the corners perhaps and possibibly on the edge of having an "off", so maybey I need to back off a bit and make up time somewhere else. I seem to go faster than the 944 in the corners but, I feel as though my top speed could do with a few more horses.
That dam need for more speed eh...where will it end before enough is enough.
If only we could run other tyres to compare, but there is really bugger all for us Stevens car owners unless we up rate to 17 inch rims. I think what it is with me is that I am pushing way too hard on the corners perhaps and possibibly on the edge of having an "off", so maybey I need to back off a bit and make up time somewhere else. I seem to go faster than the 944 in the corners but, I feel as though my top speed could do with a few more horses.
That dam need for more speed eh...where will it end before enough is enough.
944...Porsche?
That sounds fun!!! fun!!! fun!!!
They should set up a speed trap in different section of the track for you guys. We only did that here a couple time and I was running the MX-5 so I really do not have any good "notes" on the Esprit. I can tell you the "sweet spot" for the Apex is very similar to my RX-7 wich I find interesting as the cars are so very different...
Question: I noticed to day (or rather I took notice of today) how the left rear tire gets very hot from the engine bay heat. Have you ,or anybody else, heard of any issues creeping up due the temp. difference? Seems that thisshould cause a pressure difference in that rear tire? I' remember to check next time out for hot pressures...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by autocross7 on Monday 12th July 04:35
That sounds fun!!! fun!!! fun!!!
They should set up a speed trap in different section of the track for you guys. We only did that here a couple time and I was running the MX-5 so I really do not have any good "notes" on the Esprit. I can tell you the "sweet spot" for the Apex is very similar to my RX-7 wich I find interesting as the cars are so very different...
Question: I noticed to day (or rather I took notice of today) how the left rear tire gets very hot from the engine bay heat. Have you ,or anybody else, heard of any issues creeping up due the temp. difference? Seems that thisshould cause a pressure difference in that rear tire? I' remember to check next time out for hot pressures...
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
>> Edited by autocross7 on Monday 12th July 04:35
Greetings,
I race with the toyo RA1 and the correct pressure is 40psi hot. This is were the tire performs the best.
I know this does not seem correct but it is. I use the RA1 in several race cars, RX7, Esprit V8, and Eclipse GSX. The tire also needs to be shaved to be used on the track . WIth full tread it has too much thread squirm to be usefull. If you want more info email me off line and I will try and help ya out.
And I do mean race not just open track events. Our race team took 2 season first place championships last year on RA1's
YMMV
-Larry Marsala
Finesse Over Power
I race with the toyo RA1 and the correct pressure is 40psi hot. This is were the tire performs the best.
I know this does not seem correct but it is. I use the RA1 in several race cars, RX7, Esprit V8, and Eclipse GSX. The tire also needs to be shaved to be used on the track . WIth full tread it has too much thread squirm to be usefull. If you want more info email me off line and I will try and help ya out.
And I do mean race not just open track events. Our race team took 2 season first place championships last year on RA1's
YMMV
-Larry Marsala
Finesse Over Power
Hi Larry, my pressures are roughly around 37-38psi hot which is not far off from what you say. And I believe its all depends on exactly how you measured the temps, ie from an on board computer, probes etc and the type of track you run. What are your cold temps do you know? Really appreciate any more help.
BTW have you tried other race tyres for a comparison? Any reviews?
Cheers
K
BTW have you tried other race tyres for a comparison? Any reviews?
Cheers
K
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