Inspecting Gears and Synchros while doing clutch?
Discussion
I'm having my clutch done this week and assumed that it wouldn’t be much more effort to have the dealer inspect the gears, etc. but the service manager says that it'll cost me another $1K just to take a look (this seems to equate to about 10 hours) and that a new 2nd gear would be $900 and a synchro $300 -- is that right?
Luke.
Luke.
karmavore said:
I'm having my clutch done this week and assumed that it wouldn’t be much more effort to have the dealer inspect the gears, etc. but the service manager says that it'll cost me another $1K just to take a look (this seems to equate to about 10 hours) and that a new 2nd gear would be $900 and a synchro $300 -- is that right?
Luke.
1K to split the case sounds pretty steep since it's going to be out anyway.
Price on the parts sounds about right but KM can tell you since he just ordered all those parts, maybe he'll chime in.
Jim
Well, the gearbox must come out in order to replace the clutch. Inspecting the internals of the gearbox requires splitting the case and disassembly of the two shafts as 1st/2nd gear synchros are on the output shaft and 3rd/4th (and 5th) synchros are on the input shaft. So the $1K pricetag seems high considering the box will already be out (and gearlube drained). Costs for synchros (approximate) should be $175 for the 3rd/4th/5th synchros (each) and $275 for the 1st/2nd synchros (each) plus some seals, etc. I don't have pricing on any gears but if you have worn gears you have other serious issues.
I would just have them examine the gear lube... and show it to you as well. This should tell you if you've been wearing on the synchros. And for curiosity's sake, ask them what gearlube they are using. Hope this helps.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
>> Edited by kmaier on Tuesday 6th July 16:04
I would just have them examine the gear lube... and show it to you as well. This should tell you if you've been wearing on the synchros. And for curiosity's sake, ask them what gearlube they are using. Hope this helps.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
>> Edited by kmaier on Tuesday 6th July 16:04
karmavore said:
Thanks guys! How can I find out how long Lotus says a particular service should take?
If you are at the dealer, why don't you try "Show me the book." If they are honest, they shouldn't have a problem with that.
Kinda sounds like they are trying to rip you there. Ten hours seems high to me as well if the trans is out already.
It does sound a high yet I know that some garages do not take the gearbox out for a clutch change. It is only neccessary to move it back a little.
This could explain a couple of hours but not the large expense you stated.
If they intend to strip the primary and secondary drives and the diff then this can add considerably as torquing the diff back up after a full strip can take an annoying amount of time so I have been told.
Would it be feasible to get them to give you the box and get another gearbox specialit to look at it for you ?
This could explain a couple of hours but not the large expense you stated.
If they intend to strip the primary and secondary drives and the diff then this can add considerably as torquing the diff back up after a full strip can take an annoying amount of time so I have been told.
Would it be feasible to get them to give you the box and get another gearbox specialit to look at it for you ?
Del-Esprit said:
It does sound a high yet I know that some garages do not take the gearbox out for a clutch change. It is only neccessary to move it back a little.
This could explain a couple of hours but not the large expense you stated.
I've heard other people say the same thing but after having pulled my tranny a couple of times now, I can't see any way that you could move the tranny back enough to get to the clutch without taking everything loose such as driveshaft, linkage, mounting brackets. At that point the only difference is lifting it out of the car which is a couple of more minutes to do. No labor saving there that I can see.
jk1 said:
It does sound a high yet I know that some garages do not take the gearbox out for a clutch change. It is only neccessary to move it back a little.
This could explain a couple of hours but not the large expense you stated.
I've heard other people say the same thing but after having pulled my tranny a couple of times now, I can't see any way that you could move the tranny back enough to get to the clutch without taking everything loose such as driveshaft, linkage, mounting brackets. At that point the only difference is lifting it out of the car which is a couple of more minutes to do. No labor saving there that I can see.
Jim,
I agree with you. I think that some of the people who've done the work w/o lifting the box out did so for want of a proper hoist.
I changed the rear main seal (same access as doing a clutch) without pulling the box, but it really didn't save too much work, and the box actually hindered the work by it close presence. Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
jk1 said:
Jim,
You just need someone around like my buddy Dan (99 V8) who's been helping me with my car. He just picked it up and carried it over to the bench. Of course he's got arms like a gorilla...:
Hey, if you rent Dan out for repair work, you can probably pay for the repairs/upgrades on yours.... just kidding.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
karmavore said:
I'm having my clutch done this week and assumed that it wouldnt be much more effort to have the dealer inspect the gears, etc. but the service manager says that it'll cost me another $1K just to take a look (this seems to equate to about 10 hours) and that a new 2nd gear would be $900 and a synchro $300 -- is that right?
In '00, list prices for were as follows:
2nd gear: $546
1st&2nd gear synchros: $436ea
3rd, 4th, 5th synchros: $183ea
There are a number of gaskets & seals they might be budgeting too. See the receipt here.
Note that the labor charge to disassemble, inspect, and rebuild the trans totalled 12hrs.
I assume that parts/labor/etc would be the same for your V8 vs. my S4s.
EDIT: I seem to recall that to properly check everything, you have to press gears off the secondary shaft. Essentially, you do most of he labor of the rebuild. It's hard to pass judgement without knowing exactly what they're going to do.
>> Edited by MikeyRide on Thursday 8th July 14:32
[quote=MikeyRide]
In '00, list prices for were as follows:
2nd gear: $546
1st&2nd gear synchros: $436ea
3rd, 4th, 5th synchros: $183ea
There are a number of gaskets & seals they might be budgeting too. See the receipt here.
Note that the labor charge to disassemble, inspect, and rebuild the trans totalled 12hrs.
I assume that parts/labor/etc would be the same for your V8 vs. my S4s.
EDIT: I seem to recall that to properly check everything, you have to press gears off the secondary shaft. Essentially, you do most of he labor of the rebuild. It's hard to pass judgement without knowing exactly what they're going to do.
quote]
How much different did it feel after all this? I mean when it use to be good, not right before you had the work done.
In '00, list prices for were as follows:
2nd gear: $546
1st&2nd gear synchros: $436ea
3rd, 4th, 5th synchros: $183ea
There are a number of gaskets & seals they might be budgeting too. See the receipt here.
Note that the labor charge to disassemble, inspect, and rebuild the trans totalled 12hrs.
I assume that parts/labor/etc would be the same for your V8 vs. my S4s.
EDIT: I seem to recall that to properly check everything, you have to press gears off the secondary shaft. Essentially, you do most of he labor of the rebuild. It's hard to pass judgement without knowing exactly what they're going to do.
quote]
How much different did it feel after all this? I mean when it use to be good, not right before you had the work done.
Skerd said:I only drove it once before the work so I can't say. In fact, I had a verbal agreement to buy the car and the seller called me up: "there's a problem - it's grinding into 2nd gear". We worked something out based on an assumed bad 2nd gear synchro but it turned out to be a chipped tooth. Most of the stuff replaced wasn't really worn out but I'm just a sucker for "while you're in there".
How much different did it feel after all this? I mean when it use to be good, not right before you had the work done.
MikeyRide said:
Most of the stuff replaced wasn't really worn out but I'm just a sucker for "while you're in there".
Second to the motor, the tranmission is a prime candidate for "while you are in there" repairs. Doesn't make you a sucker. It makes you smart.
I made the mistake of not doing a "while I am in there" repair and paid for it. I dropped the tranmission in my Talon last year to do a slew of upgrades to it, to the tune of $1200 in parts (labor free since I did it). I was told to replace the clutch fork ($60 part) but it is a beefy part from the factory so I decided against it since mine looked fine. Sure enough, 1 month later the clutch fork snapped in traffic the day before the annual dyno competition/DSM Shootout. That night I pulled the trans to replace that fork and wasn't done until 3AM.
Long story short, doing while you are in there repairs are smart.
Greetings,
The best thing to do for your tranny is to use Redline MT90 and change it often. The brass synchros get a fine dust in the cones and this causes them to wear faster. The fluid itself is ok, but without a filter the dust getinto the synchro and causes it to go bad.
I would not split the case to inspect the gears unless i suspected a problem. It takes about 1.5 hrs to split case and 3 hours to clean and reseal case.
You will use some gaskets and stuff to rebuild it.
I am doing rebuild on 2 V8 trannnys now.
It is very hard to inspect the 1/2 synchro. The differance between a good one and one that is marginal is very hard to see with the naked eye.
I have one that is problem matic and a new one.
No one has been able to pick out the bad one 3 out 3 tries.
Good Luck
-Larry
Finesse Over Power
The best thing to do for your tranny is to use Redline MT90 and change it often. The brass synchros get a fine dust in the cones and this causes them to wear faster. The fluid itself is ok, but without a filter the dust getinto the synchro and causes it to go bad.
I would not split the case to inspect the gears unless i suspected a problem. It takes about 1.5 hrs to split case and 3 hours to clean and reseal case.
You will use some gaskets and stuff to rebuild it.
I am doing rebuild on 2 V8 trannnys now.
It is very hard to inspect the 1/2 synchro. The differance between a good one and one that is marginal is very hard to see with the naked eye.
I have one that is problem matic and a new one.
No one has been able to pick out the bad one 3 out 3 tries.
Good Luck
-Larry
Finesse Over Power
Greetings,
MT90 is not a good lub for the diff. But the lotus tranny has the diff and synchros using the same oil.
The weekest link is the 1-2 synchro. If you use the proper diff lub you will hurt the synchos. The diff is not over stressed and works ok with the MT90. As with all its a comprimise. I use the MT90 in my street V8 as well as the race car Esprit. Have many track days and no problems. I also have added a pump and cooler and filter to the tranny. This helps to keep the temps down.
Look at Johans web site for details.
YMMV
BTW I am now now rebuilding 2 trannys for the esprit race car as we speak.
-Larry
Finesse Over Power
MT90 is not a good lub for the diff. But the lotus tranny has the diff and synchros using the same oil.
The weekest link is the 1-2 synchro. If you use the proper diff lub you will hurt the synchos. The diff is not over stressed and works ok with the MT90. As with all its a comprimise. I use the MT90 in my street V8 as well as the race car Esprit. Have many track days and no problems. I also have added a pump and cooler and filter to the tranny. This helps to keep the temps down.
Look at Johans web site for details.
YMMV
BTW I am now now rebuilding 2 trannys for the esprit race car as we speak.
-Larry
Finesse Over Power
How about the Redline Shock proof gear oil?
I know a lot of people use this one high performance front engined cars (same oil for diff and gearbox)
This oil is suposed to take the stress of the gears by having microscopic heavy duty plastic partickles in it to absorb shock. Have anyone tried this in the esprit?
I know a lot of people use this one high performance front engined cars (same oil for diff and gearbox)
This oil is suposed to take the stress of the gears by having microscopic heavy duty plastic partickles in it to absorb shock. Have anyone tried this in the esprit?
Most front wheel drive setups are quite different as the entire drivetrain is transverse to the vehicle, ie, all rotational shafts are in the same axis. As a result, the final drive ratio in the transaxle is really no different from any of the other gears in the transaxle. You will have either straight-cut gears, cross-cut gears or helical-cut gears. The shock-proof gearlube from redline is probably best for gearboxes which employ straight-cut gears (like motocycle gearboxes and race gearboxes).
The Renault transaxle used in the Esprit requires the use of bevel gears in the differential and hypoid gears for the final drive. Both of these (bevel and hypoid) gear types are used to create a drive system for which the drive/driven shafts are at different axis. Bevel gears are the simplest of these drive setups and there is no difference between a drive or driven grear as both are in the same plane, just at different angles. Hypoid gear drives are more unique as there is a drive and driven gear and the fact that they can provide an angled drive setup where the input and output shafts are in different planes. If you examine the Renault gearbox, you'll notice that the output shafts to drive the rear wheels are higher than the secondary shaft which contains the pinion gear to drive the ring gear. As a result, you could not use a bevel gear for this application.
Now comes the problem of lubrication. In short, the hypoid gear final drive experiences extreme pressure between the crown wheel and pinion as the physcial contact area is quite small and that there is a sliding motion between the two as they engage/disengage during operation. This requires a special lube which can provide a high shear strength to prevent wear and premature failure. Over the years most gearlubes designed for hypoid gear drives have used special additives, mostly sulfur-based compounds. The problem here is that the sulfur compounds attack copper and it's alloys, namely brass, which is used for synchronizer rings and some shims, bushings, etc. These (lubes) are usually under the specification of a GL-5 lube. A GL-4 lube is not for Hypoid gear drives and as a result does not contain the sulfur compounds and will not attack the brass parts of a typical manual synchronized gearbox. The good news is that many of the newer GL-5 lubes use a non-active sulfur compound which will not attack the brass parts and can be used without the fear of damage as the older GL-5 lubes used active sulfur compounds (and smelled worse).
As a result, you're not really worried so much about the differential in the Renault gearbox as you are the hypoid final drive setup. The Quaife ATB differential uses a design principle which requires special gears which have extreme twist angles to generate lateral forces against thrust plates to achieve a limited-slip function, which they (Quaife) refer to as Torque-Biasing. This results in a very narrow contact angle and high pressures which are similar to those experienced by the hypoid final drive gearset. As a result, the Redline lube, which will not provide a high level of protection of the hypoid gears, will not provide a high level of protection for the twist gears in the Quaife ATB Differential. This is probably why Quaife do not recommend Redline lubes with their differentials.
Sorry for the long reply, but hope this helps clarify things a bit.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
The Renault transaxle used in the Esprit requires the use of bevel gears in the differential and hypoid gears for the final drive. Both of these (bevel and hypoid) gear types are used to create a drive system for which the drive/driven shafts are at different axis. Bevel gears are the simplest of these drive setups and there is no difference between a drive or driven grear as both are in the same plane, just at different angles. Hypoid gear drives are more unique as there is a drive and driven gear and the fact that they can provide an angled drive setup where the input and output shafts are in different planes. If you examine the Renault gearbox, you'll notice that the output shafts to drive the rear wheels are higher than the secondary shaft which contains the pinion gear to drive the ring gear. As a result, you could not use a bevel gear for this application.
Now comes the problem of lubrication. In short, the hypoid gear final drive experiences extreme pressure between the crown wheel and pinion as the physcial contact area is quite small and that there is a sliding motion between the two as they engage/disengage during operation. This requires a special lube which can provide a high shear strength to prevent wear and premature failure. Over the years most gearlubes designed for hypoid gear drives have used special additives, mostly sulfur-based compounds. The problem here is that the sulfur compounds attack copper and it's alloys, namely brass, which is used for synchronizer rings and some shims, bushings, etc. These (lubes) are usually under the specification of a GL-5 lube. A GL-4 lube is not for Hypoid gear drives and as a result does not contain the sulfur compounds and will not attack the brass parts of a typical manual synchronized gearbox. The good news is that many of the newer GL-5 lubes use a non-active sulfur compound which will not attack the brass parts and can be used without the fear of damage as the older GL-5 lubes used active sulfur compounds (and smelled worse).
As a result, you're not really worried so much about the differential in the Renault gearbox as you are the hypoid final drive setup. The Quaife ATB differential uses a design principle which requires special gears which have extreme twist angles to generate lateral forces against thrust plates to achieve a limited-slip function, which they (Quaife) refer to as Torque-Biasing. This results in a very narrow contact angle and high pressures which are similar to those experienced by the hypoid final drive gearset. As a result, the Redline lube, which will not provide a high level of protection of the hypoid gears, will not provide a high level of protection for the twist gears in the Quaife ATB Differential. This is probably why Quaife do not recommend Redline lubes with their differentials.
Sorry for the long reply, but hope this helps clarify things a bit.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
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