Lotus Purchase Story: Very Unusual Circumstances
Discussion
Earlier this year, I sold my 1990 Lotus Esprit to David Bebb in New York. Soon after parting with it, I began to miss it…I found myself looking at the Acura NSX on eBay, but it just didn’t do it for me…so I went back to looking at Lotus Esprits. After only a week, Mark Schroeder listed a 1993.5 Lotus Esprit on eBay. The bidding went up to $20,100, and it did not meet his reserve. The next week, he re-listed the car…I had to give him a call. He was located in Beatrice Nebraska, I was located 100 miles south of Kansas City, we were a long 5 hours apart. Mark and I were negotiating the price of the 1993.5 Esprit and making meeting arrangements until I received an email from David Bebb, the buyer of my first Esprit. David saw that I bid on Mark’s car (during the second time around listing the car), and pointed to a post that he read on the Esprit Fact File. The post indicated that someone had run a carfax and it turned up as a previously salvage title history. So I ran my own carfax. I panicked and quickly backed out of the deal the next time I spoke to Mark. Mark quickly laid my fears to rest when he told me that the car was not wrecked, but rather, the fuel line broke, spilling gas onto the engine causing a severe engine fire. Meanwhile, people were posting some negative comments about the car on the Esprit Fact File because of the salvage title history…but they did not get all the facts before passing judgment. What the Esprit Fact File Readers did not know was that the original owner of the car spent in excess of $15,000 to repair the damages to the engine bay after the fire. Mark had all the receipts to prove it, along with detailed pictures before and after the fire, and showing the working in progress. When I arrived in Nebraska, money in hand (just in case), I thought it would be a quick trip…look at the car and leave…boy was I wrong. I was shocked. The car was a gem, a diamond, an absolute jewel in near pristine condition…and I use pristine very sparingly. That ’93.5 previously salved title car was perfect at only 27,100 miles on the clock and only 7,000 miles since major repairs were carried out 4 years ago. Most work (99%) had been done by the reputable Dave Bean Engineering company in California (all receipts included with the car), and a fine job they did at putting her back together the way it was suppose to be. The price was right, and it was a missed opportunity by many to buy a low-mileage, limited production Esprit (one of only 113 in the US), for an unbelievably low price. Everything was included, window sticker, sunroof bag, spare tire, spare key, and of course the complete service history. Mark was an incredible seller; he had many cars in his collection and was very meticulous, but like me, was particularly fond of the Esprit. So I bought it, and drove her 5 hours home back to Missouri. For those of you searching for your perfect Esprit consider all possibilities before passing judgment. I do not regret my decision to purchase a previously salvaged title vehicle…in the case of the Esprit I now own, the word salvage title is a meaningless statement, a laughable label that does not consider the owner history. I know if you saw my new car, you would have to agree, there is not likely to be a '93.5 esprit in finer condition than what I now have in my posession...all necessary upgrades are in place, it's time to enjoy her now...I can't wait until tomorrow. -ryan
Ryan,
I'm glad you have found the car you were looking for and everything is fine. A car with a salvage title will always have a stimga attached to it no matter what. It is a red flag that many are unwilling to take a chance on it hence the lower price you were able to get it for. For many an Esprit purchase is a once in lifetime opportunity that many are willing to pay a premium price for a premium car. This not to say paying a higher price is a guarantee of that and good deals do come by once in a while.
Many times to a well informed buyer the salvage title car will be a good deal for them. But others may not know exactly what to look for and in that case maybe it is safer for them to avoid it. After all many do not only know much about cars in general much less what a proper Esprit is supposed be like at all.
It's one thing if a seller is up front about a salvage title and another if the information is brought to ones attention by a 3rd party or during the course of ones own investigation. To knowingly conceal or not mention this fact may lead many to feel that other things may also have been concealed or information held back no matter who repaired the car or how well it was done.
It is always the buyers responsibility to check out a used car. In your case a lower price is a give away that something is out of the ordinary. There is always a reason for a lower than average price. This is not to say you got a bad deal, but it seems you got a fair deal as any future resale of the car would also have to be at a discount.
In any case I'm glad you have found the right car for yourself. I might be selling my car in the near future for an upgrade. My 90 SE has been a very good car for me and when the time comes it will be sad day when it's new owner drives it away.
We have had many good e-mail converations about our cars and repair proceedures I'm sure the owner of your previous car will have a nice Lotus experience with it.
BTW this fall I plan on visiting Topeka, Kansas during the week of Aug. 5th-8th for the Central zone swimming championships and will be up to visitng any Lotus owners in the area and along my travel route to/from Minnesota as the schedule permits.
Calvin
I'm glad you have found the car you were looking for and everything is fine. A car with a salvage title will always have a stimga attached to it no matter what. It is a red flag that many are unwilling to take a chance on it hence the lower price you were able to get it for. For many an Esprit purchase is a once in lifetime opportunity that many are willing to pay a premium price for a premium car. This not to say paying a higher price is a guarantee of that and good deals do come by once in a while.
Many times to a well informed buyer the salvage title car will be a good deal for them. But others may not know exactly what to look for and in that case maybe it is safer for them to avoid it. After all many do not only know much about cars in general much less what a proper Esprit is supposed be like at all.
It's one thing if a seller is up front about a salvage title and another if the information is brought to ones attention by a 3rd party or during the course of ones own investigation. To knowingly conceal or not mention this fact may lead many to feel that other things may also have been concealed or information held back no matter who repaired the car or how well it was done.
It is always the buyers responsibility to check out a used car. In your case a lower price is a give away that something is out of the ordinary. There is always a reason for a lower than average price. This is not to say you got a bad deal, but it seems you got a fair deal as any future resale of the car would also have to be at a discount.
In any case I'm glad you have found the right car for yourself. I might be selling my car in the near future for an upgrade. My 90 SE has been a very good car for me and when the time comes it will be sad day when it's new owner drives it away.
We have had many good e-mail converations about our cars and repair proceedures I'm sure the owner of your previous car will have a nice Lotus experience with it.
BTW this fall I plan on visiting Topeka, Kansas during the week of Aug. 5th-8th for the Central zone swimming championships and will be up to visitng any Lotus owners in the area and along my travel route to/from Minnesota as the schedule permits.
Calvin
I personally think that a full service history is a not overrated, all I care about is the current mechanical state of the car, so even if it has a salvage title as long as all key mechanical components are in great running order that is good enough for me. I seen tons of cars with full service history that still needed major work to bring it up to speed.
I could never understand where this notion of a full service history gives a car an intangible seal of approval. To me a car is merely made up of a system of mechanical parts and teh condition of those parts are the deciding factor for me.
Great find. I love older cars in perfect shape....
I could never understand where this notion of a full service history gives a car an intangible seal of approval. To me a car is merely made up of a system of mechanical parts and teh condition of those parts are the deciding factor for me.
Great find. I love older cars in perfect shape....
Ryan - Congratulations on your new baby! I was the one that mentioned the Carfax in another post. I hope I did not mislead anyone into thinking that I had any personal knowledge of the car other than what carfax had reported. In fact, I had said that I had not spoken to the owner at all. I was just merely trying to contribute something, for a change, to this forum to a prospective buyer who happened to be looking for almost the exact same car as me at the same time...
Mike
Mike
Me again... My preview wasn't showing the enire book I typed out 
So I thought I would break it into two...
I believe Calvin best defended my position on about each and every car I have recently considered, called about, or looked at. Especially this one. Up until the last two months, I have not seen or driven a Lotus since 1988 (I drove a red 85, and the #1 of the 88 Limited Edition produced). It was at that time, I said I would live in a one room shack with an outhouse, if that is what it took to own one. Fortunately, I am a little better off than that, and even more fortunate, I still have the passion and desire to own one. I also am a little (using that word sparingly) more wiser now, and I really want to make this purchase count. With that in mind, I couldn't see that car being right for me. I still am completed overwhelmed by the appearance and the experience of the car to be anywhere near rational in my thought process. The last thing I would need is to have anything come back from the car's past to haunt me. Not to say, it still might not on the car I purchase, but at least I wouldn't have something as glaringly obvious as a salvage/rebuild title to kick myself over the rest of my life.
Again, I am extremely happy for you and your purchase. Albeit, somewhat dissapointed I let it possibly slip through my fingers. You live and learn I guess. I just hope my transaction turns out as well as yours. Thanks for enlightening me, and to some degree making my purchase decision an even more precarious one...
Mike
So I thought I would break it into two... I believe Calvin best defended my position on about each and every car I have recently considered, called about, or looked at. Especially this one. Up until the last two months, I have not seen or driven a Lotus since 1988 (I drove a red 85, and the #1 of the 88 Limited Edition produced). It was at that time, I said I would live in a one room shack with an outhouse, if that is what it took to own one. Fortunately, I am a little better off than that, and even more fortunate, I still have the passion and desire to own one. I also am a little (using that word sparingly) more wiser now, and I really want to make this purchase count. With that in mind, I couldn't see that car being right for me. I still am completed overwhelmed by the appearance and the experience of the car to be anywhere near rational in my thought process. The last thing I would need is to have anything come back from the car's past to haunt me. Not to say, it still might not on the car I purchase, but at least I wouldn't have something as glaringly obvious as a salvage/rebuild title to kick myself over the rest of my life.
Again, I am extremely happy for you and your purchase. Albeit, somewhat dissapointed I let it possibly slip through my fingers. You live and learn I guess. I just hope my transaction turns out as well as yours. Thanks for enlightening me, and to some degree making my purchase decision an even more precarious one
... Mike
asianbond said:Yep, I concur.
...seen tons of cars with full service history that still needed major work to bring it up to speed.
My Esprit came with a full main dealer history, much of it done by the Lotus factory itself.
The car still had a shockingly bad gear change, red hose problem and other niggles.
I don't think I could have bought a car with a better pedigree, but it has still cost me several hundred notes to get the car some bit like - and that is just for the parts. I've done the spannering myself.
Most other problems resulted from lack of use. 21000 miles in 16 years is not necessarily the best starting point.
Still, it's pretty much sorted now.
Cheers
Pat.
First, I have to say good luck to Mike in the search for a gem, the same year/make/model of Lotus can be a very different car depending on owner history. And also, I do agree with all comments posted on this topic...you have all made valid, intelligent points. One should be very cautious about any car purchase, regardless of history. For what it's worth, the carfax report raised the same red flag with me that it did with Mike.
To me, the most important thing is current mechanical condition. Last night, I had a chance to pour over the pages of work that documented the repair...all because of that fuel line that runs from the fuel filter to the engine (if you have not upgraded or checked this part, I can tell you this can be a very expensive repair). The first owner completed all repairs and spared no expense in doing so. To me, and maybe not to others, this nullifies the stigma of salvage title.
One thing is for sure, there is a story behind every Lotus purchase...that's what makes it feel right, like it was meant to be. If you know my character at all, getting me to drive 5 hours to Nebraska to look at a car with a salvage title is just about impossible. Thank you for Mark (the seller) for convincing me that I really needed to come see this car for myself. I have no regrets.
To me, the most important thing is current mechanical condition. Last night, I had a chance to pour over the pages of work that documented the repair...all because of that fuel line that runs from the fuel filter to the engine (if you have not upgraded or checked this part, I can tell you this can be a very expensive repair). The first owner completed all repairs and spared no expense in doing so. To me, and maybe not to others, this nullifies the stigma of salvage title.
One thing is for sure, there is a story behind every Lotus purchase...that's what makes it feel right, like it was meant to be. If you know my character at all, getting me to drive 5 hours to Nebraska to look at a car with a salvage title is just about impossible. Thank you for Mark (the seller) for convincing me that I really needed to come see this car for myself. I have no regrets.
I am glad it worked out for you Ryan, and Mike, keep looking and call me if you wanna talk Lotus.
However, I agree that the seller should have been very up front with the salvage title. The auctions should have stated the complete history and it not be up to the buyer to carfax it out of them. I think this is dishonest. In general, a salvage title car has a considerable less value and insurance companies are sometimes reluctant to insure them. Probabably not wanting to buy it twice. (I know an interesting story of Lloyds buying a $100 mil ship twice, but that is getting OT.)
Service history is important, but I don't put the emphesis on it that some do. It really just tells you that someone did spend the money/time and do the required routine maintenance and point out any repeating problems. Current condition is way more important to me. Also, I have come to the point that I just flat out don't trust anyone's engine rebuilds but my own. I would buy a car with high miles and an untouched motor over one that was just rebuilt any time.
We must all remember that old biker addage: If it has tits or wheels, it will give you trouble.
Dr.Hess
However, I agree that the seller should have been very up front with the salvage title. The auctions should have stated the complete history and it not be up to the buyer to carfax it out of them. I think this is dishonest. In general, a salvage title car has a considerable less value and insurance companies are sometimes reluctant to insure them. Probabably not wanting to buy it twice. (I know an interesting story of Lloyds buying a $100 mil ship twice, but that is getting OT.)
Service history is important, but I don't put the emphesis on it that some do. It really just tells you that someone did spend the money/time and do the required routine maintenance and point out any repeating problems. Current condition is way more important to me. Also, I have come to the point that I just flat out don't trust anyone's engine rebuilds but my own. I would buy a car with high miles and an untouched motor over one that was just rebuilt any time.
We must all remember that old biker addage: If it has tits or wheels, it will give you trouble.
Dr.Hess
Hi,
Since the definition of Salvage Title varies from state to state, you really must investigate the individual car to determine if it is in acceptable shape for you to buy it.
Factors ranging from the purchase price, the degree which you want/are able/have a place to do the work yourself, how long you plan on keeping the car, the cost of repair work/parts and how restorable to original shape the damage may be, and the seller's willingness to negotiate are all to be considered if pondering the purchase of a Salvage Titled car.
I disagree with those who expect the seller to be forthcoming about such things. This preempts the concept of Caveat Emptor which must always rule the day. Do your own research, be honest and objective with yourself. Don't let emotion take over. Shame on the seller for not being forthright, but greater shame on you if doing basic research is not one of the fundamental tasks you perform before spending tens of thousands of dollars on a toy!
Service History is nice, but just that. Was the car taken care of, or was it abused to the point that lots of service was required which would otherwise not have been? What does it tell you if, for instance, the clutch was changed at 15k mi. or the tires replaced at 11k mi.?
As I said, do your research or have someone else who's knowledge and opinion you respect see the car with you before you buy. Besides increasing the odds that you will have the most trouble-free car you could find, doing the proper research goes a long way to alleviating any future Buyer's Remorse. Happy Motoring! ... Jim'85TE
Since the definition of Salvage Title varies from state to state, you really must investigate the individual car to determine if it is in acceptable shape for you to buy it.
Factors ranging from the purchase price, the degree which you want/are able/have a place to do the work yourself, how long you plan on keeping the car, the cost of repair work/parts and how restorable to original shape the damage may be, and the seller's willingness to negotiate are all to be considered if pondering the purchase of a Salvage Titled car.
I disagree with those who expect the seller to be forthcoming about such things. This preempts the concept of Caveat Emptor which must always rule the day. Do your own research, be honest and objective with yourself. Don't let emotion take over. Shame on the seller for not being forthright, but greater shame on you if doing basic research is not one of the fundamental tasks you perform before spending tens of thousands of dollars on a toy!
Service History is nice, but just that. Was the car taken care of, or was it abused to the point that lots of service was required which would otherwise not have been? What does it tell you if, for instance, the clutch was changed at 15k mi. or the tires replaced at 11k mi.?
As I said, do your research or have someone else who's knowledge and opinion you respect see the car with you before you buy. Besides increasing the odds that you will have the most trouble-free car you could find, doing the proper research goes a long way to alleviating any future Buyer's Remorse. Happy Motoring! ... Jim'85TE
Ryan:
Glad the new Lotus worked out for ya. I only pointed out the salvage title after seeing the post on the forum. I agree the owner should have mentioned the salvage title with an explaination. That would have calmed some of the fears that a salvage title has.
I did mention the resale problems the car may have in the future in my email to ya. Seems there is a lesson to be learned for all the partys involved.
Hope the Lotus withdrawl is gone now, as I have no intention of returning the 90SE. Phyllis and I are in love with the silly little thing.
Think spring!!!!!
Dave Bebb
90SE
Glad the new Lotus worked out for ya. I only pointed out the salvage title after seeing the post on the forum. I agree the owner should have mentioned the salvage title with an explaination. That would have calmed some of the fears that a salvage title has.
I did mention the resale problems the car may have in the future in my email to ya. Seems there is a lesson to be learned for all the partys involved.
Hope the Lotus withdrawl is gone now, as I have no intention of returning the 90SE. Phyllis and I are in love with the silly little thing.
Think spring!!!!!
Dave Bebb
90SE
One thing I did not mention, the previous owner had no knowledge that the car had a salvage title. When he purchased the car, a neat little folder was presented to him, just as it was presented to me, showing in picture and receipts the complete, very detailed history of the car. When I met Mark, I found him to be a very honest person, I do believe he had no knowledge of this and he was very up front with me about everything that had ever happened to the car, including his own service work. Bebb: I am glad you are enjoying your Esprit, my desires for an Esprit are "curbed" for now (pardon the pun), I think you will find, as I did, once these cars latch themselves to your soul, you will probably always own one. There is truly nothing like them. Thanks for looking after me, your intentions were where they should be. -ryan
I will try to get some on my web site this week. I will post the link here when completed...looks like we are back to some bad weather for a few days though. Meanwhile, here are a TON of pictures of my '90 SE now in David's hands in New York, I think he is having a lot of fun working on little issues I missed...
www.controlanything.com/lotus/
(Warning: Don't bother if you have dialup internet, pictures are huge and there are a lot of them)
www.controlanything.com/lotus/
(Warning: Don't bother if you have dialup internet, pictures are huge and there are a lot of them)
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