Sufferfest Expectations

[Crazycraig]

In parallel to Trainerroad expectations who's using Sufferfest, and if so, what gains have people saw, what plans do people recommend, do you have any tips?

[E65Ross]

I think until they get power match, I won't be using it.

I find that my Kickr varies significantly in it's reported power output (can be a few percent) whereas the power2max power meter is as reliable as a wood burning stove. The fact that I want to use ERG mode, and the sufferfest app cannot control the kickr using data from both the power meter AND the kickr, means it's a no go for me.

Example....I did Full Frontal the other day, and the 5 minute section got me 288W on my power meter and 320W on the kickr (320W is what sufferfest app reported) which is a massive 11% difference!! The 20 minute power my Garmin had 235W and the app had 262W....again, just over 11% difference). I recalibrated it before that session. Did a little warm up and recalibrated it again and then went into a session.

When the app was telling me I was doing threshold, I was actually doing 107%, because the kickr was now closer to the power2max power readings....the fact it was effectively 7% harder, means there's not a hope in hell the workout would be physically possible.

That, and the fact the app doesn't even have a tool to calibrate the unit either.

Never had a problem with power match on trainer road, the targets and outputs always match within 1%.

So until they get power match as a feature....I'm out.

[Crazycraig]

Thanks for the input Ross, that's good to know. I'm still on a dumb trainer (Kinetic Road Machine 2) using virtual power, so I should be ok.

After just over 400 sessions and a day short of 2 years on TR I cancelled the subscription this evening in anticipation of starting Sufferfest next week.

My only reservation with Sufferfest are that the majority workouts although shorter in duration, are upwards of 0.88 and many over 0.9 IF so I'm concerned whether I'll even be able to complete them, but lets see how I get on.

You never know, I might be back on TR in a months time.

[E65Ross]

Crazycraig said:

Thanks for the input Ross, that's good to know. I'm still on a dumb trainer (Kinetic Road Machine 2) using virtual power, so I should be ok.

After just over 400 sessions and a day short of 2 years on TR I cancelled the subscription this evening in anticipation of starting Sufferfest next week.

My only reservation with Sufferfest are that the majority workouts although shorter in duration, are upwards of 0.88 and many over 0.9 IF so I'm concerned whether I'll even be able to complete them, but lets see how I get on.

You never know, I might be back on TR in a months time.

You can always dial the intensity down, and "double up"....but yes, there are far, far more workouts on TR. I also love the workout creator on TR as well.

Since getting my kickr a shade over 2 years ago, I have had TR since day 1, and continue to use it. I've dabbled with virtual training, sufferfest, zwift etc....but I keep coming back to TR, and it's the only app I have never not had.

[m444ttb]

That doesn't sound like a good reason not to use The Sufferfest. it sounds like a good reason to contact Wahoo. It's advertised as +/- 2%, which I'd assume is the same as the P2M? So user error not withstanding they shouldn't be far even at +2% on one and -2% on the other.

I've tried most of the big name training solutions but stuck with The Sufferfest as it was the only one I didn't find boring. TrainerRoad was probably at the other end of the boredom scale and Zwift somewhere in the middle. The only reason I have Zwift now is for when I don't fancy doing the structured rides I've been set outside due to crappy weather. I build them in TrainingPeaks and can import them to Zwift, which is pretty handy. With the Sufferfest I've got most benefit from it as part of a wider structured plan.

Edited by m444ttb on Monday 30th October 15:06

[Crazycraig]

So, I'm a couple of rides in to my Sufferfest experiance, and I'm just not feeling it.

I'm doing the 1 Week Peak Full Frontal plan and so far done, Cadence Builds, and The Best Way is Blended (Mash-Up), before Primers on Saturday and the Full Frontal test on Sunday, and then moving on to a plan next week such as the 10-Week Intermediate plan.

A couple of observations on the screen interface so far,

• The screen interface is a bit fussier in comparison to the likes of Trainerroad.
• The graph at the bottom of the screen is small which I understand as you need to see the footage, but you cannot extract any real information from it other than that the power is due to go up, or down.
• When the effort needs to increase / decrease you get an up or down arrow and the recommended perceived exertion (RPE) number a few seconds before, but it would be good if it gave an indication of the power instead, especially as the graph at the bottom is small so you cannot look at the graph and think, 'right I'm going to be jumping up from 180W to 300W' or whatherever. Surely most people train to power rather than RPE!
• I miss the interval timer. Yes you get a clock appear and disappear at times, but I like to know how long I have to hang on for.
• Near enough being told constantly that my heart rate is over target and in the red. Example being when you have been at a high effort and you heart rate has risen to say 160bpm, when the power drops in the app the heart rate zone also drops instantaniously, so then it tells you you should be in the range of 112-135bpm or whetever, but call me human, my heart rate takes time to drop, so by the end of the interval sometimes it hasn't even fallen to what it suggests it should have so always advises I'm in the red!

Looking at the plans,

• I dont' get why they have detailing a specific 1 week plan in build up to carrying out the Full Frontal test which takes place on a Sunday, but then all other plans have you taking the Full Frontal test on the Tuesday, very much like the FTP test on Trainerroad. I thought you needed a week to prepare, and surely they must realise that once you've taken the test on Sunday you'll most likely want to move on to one of their plans, but would not want to do the Full Frontal test again on Tuesday as part of that plan. Could they not suggest an alternative workout to doing Full Frontal.
• Looking at the 10 week intermediate road training plan, I'm also surprised that there are quite a few of the workouts (7 pages worth) where you've got to print and cut out bits of paper, and then with a calculator work out the power for each interval, based upon your FTP before you try to follow it as there is nothing created in the app for that workout.

I thought the whole idea of their new format was to get away from using FTP and to have the workouts more tailored to you, but then they revert back to using FTP! Surely they could create a workout for each workout of the plan. It takes minutes on Trainerroad's workout creator.

I'll carry on, but at the moment I'm not that impressed.

Any words of wisdom aprreciated.

[E65Ross]

Crazycraig said:

So, I'm a couple of rides in to my Sufferfest experiance, and I'm just not feeling it.

I'm doing the 1 Week Peak Full Frontal plan and so far done, Cadence Builds, and The Best Way is Blended (Mash-Up), before Primers on Saturday and the Full Frontal test on Sunday, and then moving on to a plan next week such as the 10-Week Intermediate plan.

A couple of observations on the screen interface so far,

• The screen interface is a bit fussier in comparison to the likes of Trainerroad.
• The graph at the bottom of the screen is small which I understand as you need to see the footage, but you cannot extract any real information from it other than that the power is due to go up, or down.
• When the effort needs to increase / decrease you get an up or down arrow and the recommended perceived exertion (RPE) number a few seconds before, but it would be good if it gave an indication of the power instead, especially as the graph at the bottom is small so you cannot look at the graph and think, 'right I'm going to be jumping up from 180W to 300W' or whatherever. Surely most people train to power rather than RPE!
• I miss the interval timer. Yes you get a clock appear and disappear at times, but I like to know how long I have to hang on for.
• Near enough being told constantly that my heart rate is over target and in the red. Example being when you have been at a high effort and you heart rate has risen to say 160bpm, when the power drops in the app the heart rate zone also drops instantaniously, so then it tells you you should be in the range of 112-135bpm or whetever, but call me human, my heart rate takes time to drop, so by the end of the interval sometimes it hasn't even fallen to what it suggests it should have so always advises I'm in the red!

Looking at the plans,

• I dont' get why they have detailing a specific 1 week plan in build up to carrying out the Full Frontal test which takes place on a Sunday, but then all other plans have you taking the Full Frontal test on the Tuesday, very much like the FTP test on Trainerroad. I thought you needed a week to prepare, and surely they must realise that once you've taken the test on Sunday you'll most likely want to move on to one of their plans, but would not want to do the Full Frontal test again on Tuesday as part of that plan. Could they not suggest an alternative workout to doing Full Frontal.
• Looking at the 10 week intermediate road training plan, I'm also surprised that there are quite a few of the workouts (7 pages worth) where you've got to print and cut out bits of paper, and then with a calculator work out the power for each interval, based upon your FTP before you try to follow it as there is nothing created in the app for that workout.

I thought the whole idea of their new format was to get away from using FTP and to have the workouts more tailored to you, but then they revert back to using FTP! Surely they could create a workout for each workout of the plan. It takes minutes on Trainerroad's workout creator.

I'll carry on, but at the moment I'm not that impressed.

Any words of wisdom aprreciated.

I agree with a lot of your comments, especially the daft HR targets. I tend to ride without the targets as I have an ERG trainer, so just leave it be without those in the way. I think, as you say, trainer road is far better in its simplicity and layout. They still have RPE on there because it means those who don't train with power know what to expect; and where power numbers will vary from person to person, it may be hard to overlay that directly over the video footage (I'm not sure??).

RE going away from FTP on the "drills" sessions....they have said that below FTP it doesn't matter a great deal, so having those percentages is still OK to use. It's when you start going >120% or so the differences in physiology between people becomes apparent.

The coundown interval timer is something that I value quite a lot in TR so I do miss that in the Sufferfest app, the same with the 3 second beeper you get.

Overall I prefer TR. Especially since I bought all the old Sufferfest videos so I can still use those without problem using the (for me) nicer TR layout.

[m444ttb]

I must have been doing The Sufferfest too long as I see an RPE number and know what that means I’m about to get! It’s a fair piece of feedback I think. As is the count down timer. I always run my Garmin and press the lap button so I know I’m three mins in out of four. You can visually see these days on the little progress bar at the bottom, but on the original videos I found it essential to keep myself going.

The training plans, as I understand it, are being fully reworked. I think I saw it suggested to entirely replace week one with the FF plan as an interim measure.

[E65Ross]

Yup, me too with the the rpe...

7=95%, 7.5=100%, 8=110%, 9=120% and 10 usually 150% but can be higher.

This doesn't always translate to a physically possible workout. I did The Wretched ages ago on a much lower FTP setting (how I knew I was due a retest!) and the 35min section had an IF of 1.05.....which simply isn't possible with an accurate FTP. The long scream also has a LOT of time at rpe 8, again.... I think it's something
Daft like 20mins at 8, which again is just not possible. I think some sessions 8 should be nearer 105%.

[m444ttb]

I think quite a number of workouts have been re-done (particularly alongside the launch of 4DP) where Apex coaching thought they were physically impossible for accurate power figures driving them. Hell Hath No Fury was definitely one of them. It always surprises me when people say they've completed back to back workouts with power and hit the targets. The horror of attempting Revolver + Revolver for the Tour of Sufferlandria 2016 will never leave me.

[Crazycraig]

Another day, another workout. This time a recovery spin so I did 'Open 30'.

Is there a way to watch YouTube / Netflix whilst using Sufferfest as I could not seem to see a way? I could not find how to show the metrics on thier own, or minimize the app so you can watch another source such as YouTube, so I was limited to watching silent video footage on the sufferfest app, and had to play my own music.

Not that I actively like doing 2 hours on the trainer, but if the weather's rubbish and you are doing a 2 hour spin, I can image it becoming rather dull watching the same footage over and over only listening to a film you can't watch.

Another question. Trainingpeaks sync.
I use Trainingpeaks to plan the upcoming weeks and months training, and can see how Sufferfest has the sync option.
But how do people work out their workout TSS vs their planned TSS, if in quite a few cases Sufferfest has you doing their workouts at 80% and 90%? Example being last night, I was down to do a 30 minute recovery ride with a TSS of 20 so used the workout Open 30 which states it has a TSS of 40, and an IF at 0.84, but because it is a recovery ride I dialed the workout back a little, but not to 50%, however by the end of the workout it said I'd only ended up with a TSS of 13. Clearly I made it too easy. How do people know beforehand how much they have to dial it back to hit the prescribed TSS of 20?

[E65Ross]

Crazycraig said:

Another day, another workout. This time a recovery spin so I did 'Open 30'.

Is there a way to watch YouTube / Netflix whilst using Sufferfest as I could not seem to see a way? I could not find how to show the metrics on thier own, or minimize the app so you can watch another source such as YouTube, so I was limited to watching silent video footage on the sufferfest app, and had to play my own music.

Not that I actively like doing 2 hours on the trainer, but if the weather's rubbish and you are doing a 2 hour spin, I can image it becoming rather dull watching the same footage over and over only listening to a film you can't watch.

Another question. Trainingpeaks sync.
I use Trainingpeaks to plan the upcoming weeks and months training, and can see how Sufferfest has the sync option.
But how do people work out their workout TSS vs their planned TSS, if in quite a few cases Sufferfest has you doing their workouts at 80% and 90%? Example being last night, I was down to do a 30 minute recovery ride with a TSS of 20 so used the workout Open 30 which states it has a TSS of 40, and an IF at 0.84, but because it is a recovery ride I dialed the workout back a little, but not to 50%, however by the end of the workout it said I'd only ended up with a TSS of 13. Clearly I made it too easy. How do people know beforehand how much they have to dial it back to hit the prescribed TSS of 20?

As far as I'm aware you can't have the metrics shown up on a mini screen like you can on TR, however, you could easily have the app running in the background and watch youtube or a standalone media programme and have that window as showing.

RE the TSS....the formula means that 90% of the IF means the TSS will be 81% (0.9x0.9), or dialling it back to 75% would be 56.25%....so in the latter case if the app says 100TS and you dial it to 75%, you'd get 56.25TSS

[m444ttb]

I go into the workout on the Sufferfest and turn it down top 90% (etc) and it'll tell you the new IF and TSS score before you start. For Open 30 and Open 60 I've long said the default 100% setting should be FTP as those are used differently and it'd make it much easier to compute.