High speed handling (as opposed to low speed!)
Discussion
I guess this is the most appropriate place to ask...
Took my TVR to an airfield day last weekend. The high speed stuff in the morning was quite demoralising - suddenly appeared to have lost any shred of car control. It seemed to go into turn-in oversteer immediately and, although I was reasonably quick with corrective lock, I spun as many times as not (in my defence, it's a very wide open airfield, so that's half the idea!)
In the afternoon, however, in equally wet conditions but on a much tighter course, I gave the illusion of the having some talent. I could happily provoke and hold a slide with almost video-game simplicity. I had a bit of a Richard Hammond moment and the only real difference was the speed.
Is that normal for front-engined RWD dynamics? I've done several track days and various driver training days (in other cars), but never had somewhere with the space and encouragement to provoke them to this extent at speed before. I'm told it's just a result of the extra momentum you carry at higher speeds. Can anyone expand on that and are there any ways to mitigate it?
Took my TVR to an airfield day last weekend. The high speed stuff in the morning was quite demoralising - suddenly appeared to have lost any shred of car control. It seemed to go into turn-in oversteer immediately and, although I was reasonably quick with corrective lock, I spun as many times as not (in my defence, it's a very wide open airfield, so that's half the idea!)
In the afternoon, however, in equally wet conditions but on a much tighter course, I gave the illusion of the having some talent. I could happily provoke and hold a slide with almost video-game simplicity. I had a bit of a Richard Hammond moment and the only real difference was the speed.
Is that normal for front-engined RWD dynamics? I've done several track days and various driver training days (in other cars), but never had somewhere with the space and encouragement to provoke them to this extent at speed before. I'm told it's just a result of the extra momentum you carry at higher speeds. Can anyone expand on that and are there any ways to mitigate it?
Chris71 said:
I guess this is the most appropriate place to ask...
Took my TVR to an airfield day last weekend. The high speed stuff in the morning was quite demoralising - suddenly appeared to have lost any shred of car control. It seemed to go into turn-in oversteer immediately and, although I was reasonably quick with corrective lock, I spun as many times as not (in my defence, it's a very wide open airfield, so that's half the idea!)
In the afternoon, however, in equally wet conditions but on a much tighter course, I gave the illusion of the having some talent. I could happily provoke and hold a slide with almost video-game simplicity. I had a bit of a Richard Hammond moment and the only real difference was the speed.
Is that normal for front-engined RWD dynamics? I've done several track days and various driver training days (in other cars), but never had somewhere with the space and encouragement to provoke them to this extent at speed before. I'm told it's just a result of the extra momentum you carry at higher speeds. Can anyone expand on that and are there any ways to mitigate it?
What state is your suspension/dampers this could make a big difference to the car the car handles!!Took my TVR to an airfield day last weekend. The high speed stuff in the morning was quite demoralising - suddenly appeared to have lost any shred of car control. It seemed to go into turn-in oversteer immediately and, although I was reasonably quick with corrective lock, I spun as many times as not (in my defence, it's a very wide open airfield, so that's half the idea!)
In the afternoon, however, in equally wet conditions but on a much tighter course, I gave the illusion of the having some talent. I could happily provoke and hold a slide with almost video-game simplicity. I had a bit of a Richard Hammond moment and the only real difference was the speed.
Is that normal for front-engined RWD dynamics? I've done several track days and various driver training days (in other cars), but never had somewhere with the space and encouragement to provoke them to this extent at speed before. I'm told it's just a result of the extra momentum you carry at higher speeds. Can anyone expand on that and are there any ways to mitigate it?
If it's any consolation I experience exactly the same in a rear engine RWD car. Below about 60 mph I'm confident that I can catch it. Above that, I'm not sure I can. The one time I had a big oversteer moment when approaching three figures (Craner curves), the car was in a spin before I knew it. This leads me to believe that 'reasonably quick' steering reactions are just not good enough. In car footage of racing drivers in action (especially of the F1 drivers last season) shows just how fast their steering reactions are.
In my own case I don't believe it is possible for me to develop the talent to catch a high speed moment, so keep within my limits on high speed/risk corners.
In my own case I don't believe it is possible for me to develop the talent to catch a high speed moment, so keep within my limits on high speed/risk corners.
Suspension is brand new and professionally set up by a guy who works for the damper manufacturer and is also somewhat of a TVR S-Series guru, so I would hope it's pretty good.
The handling is absolutely spot on at low speed - very flattering - it just becomes far trickier at high speed (we're talking 30mph corner entry compared to 80mph - that sort of difference). You'd never know it was the same car. The guy who runs the event said it might be due to the momentum taking over at higher speeds - instead of a bit of stabilising understeer then power-oversteer, the momentum carries it straight into near-terminal oversteer.
Don't doubt my car control could be massively improved, but it was enough to really take liberties at lower speeds and yet I was somewhat out of my depth further on.
edit: Interestingly, he [Andy Walsh] actually advocated using the brakes to bring the car back when it started to oversteer. He's said to be one of the best in the business, so I don't doubt it, but I must have been doing something wrong as the horizon kept rotating whatever I tried!
The handling is absolutely spot on at low speed - very flattering - it just becomes far trickier at high speed (we're talking 30mph corner entry compared to 80mph - that sort of difference). You'd never know it was the same car. The guy who runs the event said it might be due to the momentum taking over at higher speeds - instead of a bit of stabilising understeer then power-oversteer, the momentum carries it straight into near-terminal oversteer.
Don't doubt my car control could be massively improved, but it was enough to really take liberties at lower speeds and yet I was somewhat out of my depth further on.
edit: Interestingly, he [Andy Walsh] actually advocated using the brakes to bring the car back when it started to oversteer. He's said to be one of the best in the business, so I don't doubt it, but I must have been doing something wrong as the horizon kept rotating whatever I tried!
Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 27th January 16:33
I've done an Andy Walsh day. If I'm right, the thing you're talking about is the fast left hand corner. I found in my Griff that a light touch of the brakes whilst going in results in an incredibly quick spin. The answer, IMO, is not that your car is more susceptible than others it's just that you should not, under any circumstances, lightly touch the brakes whilst entering a corner at very high speed. That's Andy's point I believe. A far harder push on the brake pedal will create understeer which you can then modulate to get around the corner.
Was the natural balance at low speed towards oversteer too? you say above that you had to provoke the back end at low speed which suggests to me the natural balance of the car is slight understeer or maybe neutral but you're suffering a high speed aero lift issue at the back. This would reduce grip two fold on the rear : one from the physical loading on the tyre reducing and secondly because you have semi trailing arms on the back of your S you will get reduced negative camber too.
A big wing would help
or just get the car settled nice and early, braking all over before turn in and be on the power early to squat the back .. and don't lift off unless you have to!
A big wing would help
or just get the car settled nice and early, braking all over before turn in and be on the power early to squat the back .. and don't lift off unless you have to!boxsey said:
If it's any consolation I experience exactly the same in a rear engine RWD car. Below about 60 mph I'm confident that I can catch it. Above that, I'm not sure I can. The one time I had a big oversteer moment when approaching three figures (Craner curves), the car was in a spin before I knew it. This leads me to believe that 'reasonably quick' steering reactions are just not good enough. In car footage of racing drivers in action (especially of the F1 drivers last season) shows just how fast their steering reactions are.
In my own case I don't believe it is possible for me to develop the talent to catch a high speed moment, so keep within my limits on high speed/risk corners.
Don't give up my friend, keep practising! Anything is easier to hold at lower speeds but build up to it. I have faith in you mate!In my own case I don't believe it is possible for me to develop the talent to catch a high speed moment, so keep within my limits on high speed/risk corners.
trackcar said:
Was the natural balance at low speed towards oversteer too? you say above that you had to provoke the back end at low speed which suggests to me the natural balance of the car is slight understeer or maybe neutral but you're suffering a high speed aero lift issue at the back. This would reduce grip two fold on the rear : one from the physical loading on the tyre reducing and secondly because you have semi trailing arms on the back of your S you will get reduced negative camber too.
A big wing would help or just get the car settled nice and early, braking all over before turn in and be on the power early to squat the back .. and don't lift off unless you have to!
The S is supposed to be pretty stable aerodynamically and it's running a slightly nose down attitude, which should help. It is true to say the car is neutral tending to slight understeer at low speed, but easily provoked into very flattering oversteer (1st or 2nd gear wet track...)A big wing would help
or just get the car settled nice and early, braking all over before turn in and be on the power early to squat the back .. and don't lift off unless you have to!At higher speeds - 3rd or 4th going into Andy's famous left hand bend it goes into oversteer much quicker (seemingly bipassing the understeer) and it's also much more difficult to catch even when you think you've reacted quick enough.
Tyre pressures make much more difference at high speed (small changes in slip angle suddenly become *much* more interesting). It may be that in the slow corners you aren't spending so much time in a steady state so you are seeing handling characteristics introduced by the dampers rather than the springs. For example if you had low front roll stiffness but lots of damping on the front you might see transient understeer changing to oversteer as the car settled into the corner.
It's also possible that you're just throwing the car in too hard. In slow corners you will have a much higher yaw rate so turning the car in too positively will have (relatively) less impact. Turning in just as positively in a faster corner would result in a yaw 'overshoot' leading to oversteer.
The problem is probably a combination of factors and could addressed either by trying to change the car's handling or by learning to drive round the existing handling characteristics. Did your instructor take your car out and tell your whether it seemed to be handling OK? That would give a valuable clue about where the problem is.
It's also possible that you're just throwing the car in too hard. In slow corners you will have a much higher yaw rate so turning the car in too positively will have (relatively) less impact. Turning in just as positively in a faster corner would result in a yaw 'overshoot' leading to oversteer.
The problem is probably a combination of factors and could addressed either by trying to change the car's handling or by learning to drive round the existing handling characteristics. Did your instructor take your car out and tell your whether it seemed to be handling OK? That would give a valuable clue about where the problem is.
mmm-five said:
Either you're going in too fast, you're on the brakes, or you've lifted off the throttle completely.
The only other reason is you're trying to keep too tight a line and the car wants to drift wide - so let it.
Presuming this was a Car Limits day then in all likelihood the poster had lifted comletely off the throttle as Andy normally tells driver to turn in with feet off the pedals as opposed to a balanced throttle. So you are probably right about this being a reason for this oversteer.The only other reason is you're trying to keep too tight a line and the car wants to drift wide - so let it.
GreenV8S said:
Green George said:
Andy normally tells driver to turn in with feet off the pedals
Why on earth? It's a sure fire recipe for oversteer on a powerful rwd car. 
Initially, he might suggest turning in with feet off the pedals. You soon learn that doing this, or lightly touching the brakes, in a TVR is a really bad idea! I wonder whether the OP is confusing this with the high speed handling of his car.
I've been to a couple of the Car limits days and also have copy of Andrew Walsh's video , so can understand the feeling..
He normally gets you to try with balanced throttle or your normal technique , then proceeds to full threshold braking in straight line before easing off brakes and applying turn , leading to a mix of brake and throttle and steering in an effort to maximise both entry speed and exit speed.
This is a lot to take in especially if you are not used to trail braking so my recommendation is to go back and do some more Car Limits days ...its cheaper than trackdays or hitting things in a non airfield environment
He normally gets you to try with balanced throttle or your normal technique , then proceeds to full threshold braking in straight line before easing off brakes and applying turn , leading to a mix of brake and throttle and steering in an effort to maximise both entry speed and exit speed.
This is a lot to take in especially if you are not used to trail braking so my recommendation is to go back and do some more Car Limits days ...its cheaper than trackdays or hitting things in a non airfield environment
Cris71 The best way to have an answer would be to send me an email but I will briefly help here.
The day you did must have been one of the activity days not a carlimits training day.
The speed the brain can cope with is upto 60 after this you need to start listening to the car.
As for the technique used the safest is the balanced throttle but you will only make the corner at about 70 with that.
As you reduce your average speed in the bend the enty speed can increase but your risk of spining increases, those that can't control the car will always leave some throttle on to hide the probelm, carry on doing this on the road and track as its safe.
If however you are racing at the front of the pack or in road terms you have found yourself in the corner with too much speed you will not make the corner, This may be a deer or an accident ahead, our just a simple oh S**T moment.
So on the day we try to show you the other techniques that the top drivers use, some without knowing. The first is the lifting off all the peddles as discussed above this will reduce your average speed allowing the turn to be made tighter, if however you hold the wheel on too tight a radius the car will try its best to listen to you, for most people this results in oversteer or spin, after a short understeer.
As you saw on the day some of the drivers were doing over 90, they will be using the brake and some may even be using both the throttle and brake depending on how many days they have been on.
I will check on this thread after work but I really dont like trying to explain driving techniques on a forum as its very easy to explain it incorectly, the amount of people that turn up after reading books that have come to there own conclusions is scary, where as the training days or even on the phone I can normally check I have explained it properly with a couple of Q and A's
Walshy
The day you did must have been one of the activity days not a carlimits training day.
The speed the brain can cope with is upto 60 after this you need to start listening to the car.
As for the technique used the safest is the balanced throttle but you will only make the corner at about 70 with that.
As you reduce your average speed in the bend the enty speed can increase but your risk of spining increases, those that can't control the car will always leave some throttle on to hide the probelm, carry on doing this on the road and track as its safe.
If however you are racing at the front of the pack or in road terms you have found yourself in the corner with too much speed you will not make the corner, This may be a deer or an accident ahead, our just a simple oh S**T moment.
So on the day we try to show you the other techniques that the top drivers use, some without knowing. The first is the lifting off all the peddles as discussed above this will reduce your average speed allowing the turn to be made tighter, if however you hold the wheel on too tight a radius the car will try its best to listen to you, for most people this results in oversteer or spin, after a short understeer.
As you saw on the day some of the drivers were doing over 90, they will be using the brake and some may even be using both the throttle and brake depending on how many days they have been on.
I will check on this thread after work but I really dont like trying to explain driving techniques on a forum as its very easy to explain it incorectly, the amount of people that turn up after reading books that have come to there own conclusions is scary, where as the training days or even on the phone I can normally check I have explained it properly with a couple of Q and A's
Walshy
Thanks Andy, much appreciated. It was indeed on an activity day (I was in the dark blue TVR that kept pirouetting last weekend 
)
The curiosity wasn't so much the nature of the excercise or even what I did wrong, but whether it was normal to be so much trickier doing the same thing at higher speeds. Sounds like that's the case.
Will keep my eyes open for a suitable Carimits day in March or later to come and find out what I was doing wrong!
In the meantime, the car is going back to the suspension guy in the near future to cure a ride height problem, so we'll double check the setup. The only significant change was to the toe angle (can't remember which way off the top of my head) can someone remind me what that's likely to do? Did do three years of vehicle dynamics at uni, but it's been a very long time since I've put any of it into practice.
)The curiosity wasn't so much the nature of the excercise or even what I did wrong, but whether it was normal to be so much trickier doing the same thing at higher speeds. Sounds like that's the case.
Will keep my eyes open for a suitable Carimits day in March or later to come and find out what I was doing wrong!
In the meantime, the car is going back to the suspension guy in the near future to cure a ride height problem, so we'll double check the setup. The only significant change was to the toe angle (can't remember which way off the top of my head) can someone remind me what that's likely to do? Did do three years of vehicle dynamics at uni, but it's been a very long time since I've put any of it into practice.
Hi Chris .. how did you find your activity day? was it good fun? Ive just been on the car limits site and there's activity days at 46pounds? is that right? that's like a third the cost of a track day and you get to drive 2 different circuits on the same day at that as well? .. what other costs are involved or is that it? I've just messaged car limits to ask for clarification on costs, but your ideas and thoughts on the experience would be most welcome 
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