E46M3 or 996C2 for everyday & track use.

[Mark T]

Up to say £20kish so the shortlist so far is:
M3 with brake upgrade, maybe CS (or CSL) if I'm feeling flush.
996 C2 - don't really know anything about them - do they stand up to track use ?
Probably 10,000 miles pa.
Discuss.

[JDM-San]

996 engines are crap (except Turbo, Gt2, Gt3 as they have dry sump). 996 engine doesn´t bear even normal street driving let alone track abuse (lubrication problems). Take a look at the 996 prices and compare it with older 964 and 993 and you see how cheap 996´s are.

[bull996]

JDM-San said:

996 engines are crap (except Turbo, Gt2, Gt3 as they have dry sump). 996 engine doesn´t bear even normal street driving let alone track abuse (lubrication problems). Take a look at the 996 prices and compare it with older 964 and 993 and you see how cheap 996´s are.

Lol. What a load of utter crap. They are fine. A tiny % age fail as with any other car.
If you want to talk about expensive failures, just look at M3 vanos issues.

My 996 was fine after loads of trackdays and proper driving.

[kusee pee]

Both would be great for the track after a few basic mods. I'm a porsche-man but at this money I would be in an E46 CSL - even though I'd prefer a manual box for the track I can not resist that noise! Stunning.

[JDM-San]

I know at least 5 996 which have new engines. One was changed after 25k miles, others bit later (up to 60k miles). Also I have read about the same problem from US forums (6speedonline and few others).
I have no idea how reliable M3 are.

[darronwall]

bull996 said:

JDM-San said:

996 engines are crap (except Turbo, Gt2, Gt3 as they have dry sump). 996 engine doesn´t bear even normal street driving let alone track abuse (lubrication problems). Take a look at the 996 prices and compare it with older 964 and 993 and you see how cheap 996´s are.

Lol. What a load of utter crap. They are fine. A tiny % age fail as with any other car.
If you want to talk about expensive failures, just look at M3 vanos issues.

My 996 was fine after loads of trackdays and proper driving.

so is mine!!

[amir_j]

JDM-San said:

I know at least 5 996 which have new engines. One was changed after 25k miles, others bit later (up to 60k miles). Also I have read about the same problem from US forums (6speedonline and few others).
I have no idea how reliable M3 are.

Go and read Baz from Hartechs posts, he deals a bit more than 5 and its a small % which go bang early on.

[Soovy]

JDM-San said:

996 engines are crap (except Turbo, Gt2, Gt3 as they have dry sump). 996 engine doesn´t bear even normal street driving let alone track abuse (lubrication problems). Take a look at the 996 prices and compare it with older 964 and 993 and you see how cheap 996´s are.

UTTER BULLSH T.

WHAT A KNOB. 14 posts in a year. Then this gem.


There have a been a small number of 996 engine failures. M3s have also had catastrophic failures. Numbers are very small despite the cobblers you read on here from non owners. If you want FACTS go to Bax's site by Googling for Hartech Porsche.

Those failures have nothing to do with the absence or otherwise of a dry sump lubrication system. The GT2, GT3 and Turbo use a different block based on the GT1 Le Mans racer, which is stronger still.

I've said it before, when one of the regulars on here with more than 10,000 posts suffers a failure I'll think the numbers are relevant. There are at least ten of us who collectively have done over half a MILLION miles without a cough between us.

Didn't realise it was half term again.

Edited by Soovy on Tuesday 27th January 19:24

[Birdthom]

Apologies for thread hijack but a good mate of mine has been having a lot of problems with track and hard road driving with his 51 plate 996C2. It goes fine, but blows out huge amounts of oil smoke on steep inclines (e.g climb up to Hohe Acht or on the banking at Rockingham).

From what he tells me, the issue is the oil separator and it can't really be fixed. It makes using the car on track impossible really - he'd just be a moving smoke screen.

Is this common, and how do you fix it?

(It's a very good car BTW in response to the guy above who's never driven one in his life.)

[Mark T]

Yep some good stuff.
No I've not driven a 911 & only really worried about the floaty front end understeer type handling reputation - maybe that's just old ones but you don't tend to see that many on track.
Leaning towards the BMW as I know it would be pretty awesome - esp CSL - really fancy one.
Need to drive a 911 really - anyone wanting to lend me one feel free !
Wonder what either will be worth in 3 yrs time with another 30k on them.
Again CSL may hold value better as there's only 422 of them, but with 70 or 80k on them & 10yr old who knows.

[tertius]

Mark T said:

Yep some good stuff.
No I've not driven a 911 & only really worried about the floaty front end understeer type handling reputation - maybe that's just old ones but you don't tend to see that many on track.
Leaning towards the BMW as I know it would be pretty awesome - esp CSL - really fancy one.
Need to drive a 911 really - anyone wanting to lend me one feel free !
Wonder what either will be worth in 3 yrs time with another 30k on them.
Again CSL may hold value better as there's only 422 of them, but with 70 or 80k on them & 10yr old who knows.

Eh?

What track days do you do? I've hardly ever done a track day without seeing at least one other air-cooled 911. Well except that Lotus on Track day ...

[RMac]

tertius said:

Mark T said:

Yep some good stuff.
No I've not driven a 911 & only really worried about the floaty front end understeer type handling reputation - maybe that's just old ones but you don't tend to see that many on track.
Leaning towards the BMW as I know it would be pretty awesome - esp CSL - really fancy one.
Need to drive a 911 really - anyone wanting to lend me one feel free !
Wonder what either will be worth in 3 yrs time with another 30k on them.
Again CSL may hold value better as there's only 422 of them, but with 70 or 80k on them & 10yr old who knows.

Eh?

What track days do you do? I've hardly ever done a track day without seeing at least one other air-cooled 911. Well except that Lotus on Track day ...

I have to agree - hardly seen any Porkers on track except gt3's, gt2's & the odd turbo. I have seen a couple of boxters and a few caymans on track but very very rarely have I seen a standard ish 911 on track.

[RMac]

by comparison, there is pretty much always a csl out on track and plenty of old bm's - not that many normal e46 m3's though.

I think the difference is, even though prices are now similar, the m3 feels a much more attainable car and even though a 911 may not be ridiculously expensive to run, some people may be put off by thinking it is. Let's be fair too, there are plenty of horror stories if you look on any forums. I am sure, like the vanos issue that it only affects a handful but I do understand why it would put people off.

Either would need work / money to make a reliable regular track day car. If you want to do a couple of days a year then either will be fine as they are.

In all seriouness, why not look at Bookatrack.com for their caterhams to hire? You will be able to get one of those for a day for less than you would spend on brakes and tyres in either of the cars you mention. And I can assure you, they are far more fun!

[Mark T]

Well if bookatrack would lend me their caterham between days as well then that may be an option.
Caterhams and the like are great but not on road or in inclement weather & I can't be bothered with trailers etc.
I have the bmw pretty well covered in terms of what would be required to be a reliable tracker - just brakes really.
911 - no idea.

[RMac]

Hi Mark, I don't quite 'get' your comment about trailers etc.

The idea is, they deliver it to the race track for you so it completely avoids any hassle on your part. They will even fill it up with fuel for you if you are running low.

You can then just rock up in your / insert comfy barge of choice / , have fun and then drive home in comfort at the end of the day.

No-one can predict what the weather will do of course and you are right that generally a caterham will be more fun in the dry. I wouldn't rule one out in the wet though. I have found that learning in the wet in one of these will make you enjoy the dry more and your car control will improve dramatically. They also run better tyres these days which have improved things substantially in the wet.

Regarding stuff to do to a Porsche - I am pretty sure the standard discs, pads & fluid aren't up to the job but everything else should be better than the bm I would think.

[Orangecurry]

Mark T said:

Well if bookatrack would lend me their caterham between days as well then that may be an option.
Caterhams and the like are great but not on road or in inclement weather & I can't be bothered with trailers etc.
I have the bmw pretty well covered in terms of what would be required to be a reliable tracker - just brakes really.
911 - no idea.

You don't need to do anything to a 911 to take it on the track - they all have proper brakes from the factory.

We had three standard 911s at Brands last year, two at Goodwood and then three to the 'ring and back. Three full back-to-back laps of the 'ring in the hands of a person with no knowledge of the track, i.e. far too much braking, and no difference in braking performance was felt at any point.

I did change the brake fluid before hand, but that was because I wasn't sure when it was last changed.

[bionic man]

Had an e46 m3 and and an m3csl now got a gt3. All great cars but have the say the gt3 is a far more involving ownership experience and I have had to learn a lot about the dynamics of driving quick to get the most out the gt3. But tracking the gt3 regularly is far more costly than either versions of the m3.
So if your on a budget go for the m3 if not get some pork

[DiscoColin]

On this budget I think that a manual E46 M3 or M3 CS is the way to go if you are being rational about it. Love the CSL but I really do prefer swapping my own cogs. Emotively though, I personally do find 911s a more involving drive so it is far from clear cut. As a bare minimum, a 911 C2 will need a geo setup and probably some uprated brake fluid for the track (so not much). Beyond that, pretty much good to go.

From what I hear from the few people I have spoken to that have them - an M3 would really benefit from a couple or three grand spent on a brake upgrade (competition calipers/disks/pads/hoses/fluid) for serious track work.

As for these people who think that they don't see many non-GT2/3/Turbo 911s on track, they certainly can't be doing the same days as me. Though that said - the majority of cooking 911s on track days do tend to be 997s or air cooled rather than 996s.

[bionic man]

Agreed, if your remotely serious about tracking an m3 it needs coilovers and AP's all round. On saying I spent over 10k last year getting the gt3 just how I wanted it