'Fire and rehire?'

[Mr Creosote]

A friend of mine (I know what you re thinking, but it s not me, honestly!) works for a university, which is planning to make its staff move to a subsidiary company in order to force them off the old DB pension scheme onto an inferior DC one.

There s a news article on it here: https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/25566188.ucu-warn...

Apparently something similar happened with P&O a few years ago.

He s not a member of the union so presumably can t get involved in any industrial action, if any is planned. But should he be seeking independent advice on this? What would you do in this situation?

ETA: Please excuse the really obvious and embarrassing typo in the headline

[StevieBee]

A company is permitted to fire someone and rehire them on worse terms. But it is a restricted practice and comes with many caveats, not least of which is transparency, consultation and that the reason for doing so is sound (i.e the company will go bust if they don't or more people will loose their jobs.

The onus is on the employer to ensure that they have followed all procedures correctly but the employee should equip themselves with an understanding of what those procedures and caveats are.

[Countdown]

Mr Creosote said:

He s not a member of the union so presumably can t get involved in any industrial action, if any is planned.

AIUI he can as long as the strike itself is lawful and he's affected by whatever issues the Union is striking about.

In relation to your wider point I've been involved in a few company restructures and the phrase that HR use as a general "catch all" for sacking people is "Some other substantive reason" so yes, what they're doing sounds legal.

[Mr Creosote]

Thanks for the replies!

[P-Jay]

Sorry to take this off-topic slightly, but I've never managed to understand how employers are allowed to do this, without every employee affected taking them to tribunal for unfair dismissal?

[UpTheIron]

P-Jay said:

Sorry to take this off-topic slightly, but I've never managed to understand how employers are allowed to do this, without every employee affected taking them to tribunal for unfair dismissal?

And if the employer is bankrupt?

[ozzuk]

I take it there is something in the pension or contract that is preventing them just moving to a DC? Our company did this (DB to DC), even with active backing of unite it couldn't be stopped but the compensation (that they didn't have to pay) was excellent.

[Countdown]

P-Jay said:

Sorry to take this off-topic slightly, but I've never managed to understand how employers are allowed to do this, without every employee affected taking them to tribunal for unfair dismissal?

Because it’s legal (as long as they follow the correct procedure).

The fact is that sometimes the business environment changes and your current business model is no longer viable so you can either completely close down or go through a painful restructuring.

[Sporky]

UpTheIron said:

P-Jay said:

Sorry to take this off-topic slightly, but I've never managed to understand how employers are allowed to do this, without every employee affected taking them to tribunal for unfair dismissal?

And if the employer is bankrupt?

If the employer is bankrupt how can they rehire?

[98elise]

P-Jay said:

Sorry to take this off-topic slightly, but I've never managed to understand how employers are allowed to do this, without every employee affected taking them to tribunal for unfair dismissal?

Because you're not guaranteed the same T&C's forever. They don't even have to fire you to make things worse.

Due to a reorganisation I was once offered the following options....

1. Complete with another manager for one management job, meaning I kept my old title/status but had to take on the other managers work.

2. Keep doing the same job, but drop to a supervisor/team lead status working under the manager

3. Take redundancy

This was a FTSE100 company so knew what they could legally do. Employers can be tts when they want to be.

[macron]

Sporky said:

If the employer is bankrupt how can they rehire?

I really hope you can work out that retaining the staff is what would cause the bankruptcy. Being fired and rehired on worse terms may be much more preferable to individuals than being made redundant from a defunct firm where the likelihood is there would be no corporate body left to pay even basic redundancy.

It is this narrow scenario where a company is trading in a manner in which they will be insolvent within a defined period that permits them to do this.

[UpTheIron]

Sporky said:

If the employer is bankrupt how can they rehire?

Bankrupted by the tribunal payouts.

[Countdown]

98elise said:

Because you're not guaranteed the same T&C's forever. They don't even have to fire you to make things worse.

Due to a reorganisation I was once offered the following options....

1. Complete with another manager for one management job, meaning I kept my old title/status but had to take on the other managers work.

2. Keep doing the same job, but drop to a supervisor/team lead status working under the manager

3. Take redundancy

This was a FTSE100 company so knew what they could legally do. Employers can be tts when they want to be.

Slightly O/T but that’s the nature of capitalism/entrepreneurship…..to maximise profits.

[NDA]

I wonder what happens to their continuous employment rights?

[FiF]

Iirc Coventry did this some time ago. There were originally various options but think in the end they went for fire and rehire.

Some other universities have already created a subsidiary where new recruits are employed on a DC pension scheme. Thus you have two tiers.

Some others are slightly different in that new hires do make an adjustment on pay scale, plus if they are moving from a different institution and are already enrolled in LGPS they can be grandfathered in.

The real financial burden to the institution in these cases is the Teachers Pension scheme, the LGPS is less of an issue apparently.

[Sheepshanks]

Mr Creosote said:

A friend of mine (I know what you re thinking, but it s not me, honestly!) works for a university, which is planning to make its staff move to a subsidiary company in order to force them off the old DB pension scheme onto an inferior DC one.

Sounds similar to what happened to my daughter. NHS spent a fortune training her, then they palmed her department off to a 3rd party company. They were TUPE'd, but pay was frozen at that point unless they switched to the new company T's & C's, including their pension. Many staff left and moved to other NHS Trusts.

[Sporky]

macron said:

Sporky said:

If the employer is bankrupt how can they rehire?

I really hope you can work out that retaining the staff is what would cause the bankruptcy.

If you're going to answer sarcastically, make sure you read what you've quoted.