So difficult is it to find someone capable of doing the job.

[Dupont666]

Right will set the scenraio out:

Needed Technical speicalist/Architect to do 80% hands on and 20% buffer (BA/team lead) job in Prime financial services.

Skills :- normal team lead plus advanced techniques in the following:

.NET 4.0 (we are moving to this from 2.0)
Multi-threading
Caching
Design patterns
CAB
WCF (upgrading to use this in the next few months)
WPF (upgrading to use this in the next few months)
MSMQ (moving to latest version)
Syncfusion (not essential but we use it)
SQL used extensively so would be good to know what it is and how it works.

We ask for advanced as the job is technical specialist/Achitect so you are supposed to come up with new ideas and ways that the system can move forward using latest tech, not so you can sit there and know as much as the current crop of developers (3 of us highly skilled)... Will need to get involved as we are pushed to delivery everything and have been wanting a tech to join us since Jan.

We also ask for financial experience of 2-3 years and preferably Equities based but credit derivs is good too.

so baring in mind all of that and the fact they are all told a technical test will be done once they have got through level 1 interview (boss interview to weed out bull stters) and onto level 2 interview (usually myself and one other developer) to do 30 min tech test (SQL/C# multiple choice) and 30 mins light grilling to see if we like you and not lying about the experience we need listed above...

Why the fk are we getting a load of project managers/team leads that claim they are hands on and have the technolgy experience that are trying to move back into More hands on/better employer...

In the past 4 candidates (2 project managers and 2 technical leads) have they scored 12, 15, 17 and 20 out of 36 on the technical test that is based on multiple choice questions (no writing to make it easier)... On the technology they claim to be cutting edge on and have all used for 6+ years, what makes it worse is that if I gave the test to a 2 junior techs (have done to make sure it wasnt too hard) they got 28-30 respectively....

ARRRGGGGHHH... Its a fking technical inteview, we need to make sure you can do the work and add value to the team, you get warned about this several days prior to the interview... You get told the tech we are working with by the level 1 interview, so when you look at use blankly when we ask about multithreading/CAB/WCF we are as embarassed as you are for making you look stupid in the awkward silence...

ITS A 6 FIGURE fkING SALARY, STOP LYING ON YOUR CV ABOUT TECH AND KNOWLEDGE AND DO SOME fkING REVISION ON THE SUBJECT PRIOR TO THE BLOODY INTERVIEW AND DONT WASTE MY TIME!!

Sorry about that... has been a painful 3 days and 4 interviews!

On a side note, Anyone want a tech/architect job for a leading Financial player? (Yes Im being serious here)

[voicey]

Hiring is also a friggin nightmare for me. My team runs the PnL and balance sheet for the non-liner derivative trading businesses, so they need to know the concept of how to value different financial instruments - it is amazing the amount of people who claim to have experience with these products that fall flat on my opening (very easy) question...

Me: Tell me what you know about the time value of money.
Candidate: Erm, not sure.
Me: That will be all, thanks for your time.

I've now taken to blacklisting recruitment agencies that send me muppets.

Edit for dodgy typos.

Edited by voicey on Thursday 1st July 11:00

[Dupont666]

voicey said:

Hiring is also a friggin nightmare for me. My team runs the PnL and balance sheet for the non-liner derivative trading businesses, so they need to know the concept of how to value different financial instruments - it is amazing the amount of people who claim to have experience with these products that fall flat on my opening (very easy) question...

Me: Tell me what you know about the time value of money.
Candidate: Erm, not sure.
Me: That will be all, thanks for your time.

I've now taken to blacklisting recruitment agencies that send me muppets.

Edit for dodgy typos.

Edited by voicey on Thursday 1st July 11:00

Oh good god... they fail at that question!!

I spend enough time working out how the desk get massive PnL differences across 2 systems that everyone who touches PnL should understand that kind of terminology...

Hell you could even guess that its terminology that uses time (so guessing a start point and end point) and with money you pluck the word interest/interest rate out of your ass and be close to truth and succeed.

So of the feedback we have been sending back has been amusing...

Candidate wants architect/technical role that is hands on and needs advanced knowledge of technologies, yet candidate has not been hands on for 4 years and got well below average on tech test, plus didnt not know basic technology let alone advanced... not something we expected if applying for such a role.

[tankplanker]

I blame the Internet, making it too easy for people to blag a job then try and pick up what they need when they start it.

The best interview processes I've been on (I'm in IT) combine a technical interview with a separate presentation for a new business pitch given to them at that interview. That way you know that the person has the in-depth technical skills required and can talk at the right level in plain English under pressure about it.

I've been to far too many interviews were they don't even ask basic technical questions let alone check your business skills out, how on earth they expect to recruit quality employees the majority of the time I will never know.

If an agency provides me with a candidate clearly out of their depth then I tell them so and make it clear I don't appreciate them wasting my time.

[zippy3x]

Is the financial stuff set in stone - i've got all the tech stuff (bar syncfusion) and am always interested in good money

[Dupont666]

zippy3x said:

Is the financial stuff set in stone - i've got all the tech stuff (bar syncfusion) and am always interested in good money

I dont do the financial interview to test that but if you have a CV send me a copy and I will look it over...

[Marty Funkhouser]

voicey said:

Hiring is also a friggin nightmare for me. My team runs the PnL and balance sheet for the non-liner derivative trading businesses, so they need to know the concept of how to value different financial instruments - it is amazing the amount of people who claim to have experience with these products that fall flat on my opening (very easy) question...

Me: Tell me what you know about the time value of money.
Candidate: Erm, not sure.
Me: That will be all, thanks for your time.

I've now taken to blacklisting recruitment agencies that send me muppets.

Edit for dodgy typos.

Edited by voicey on Thursday 1st July 11:00

Erm....whats the correct answer???

[spikeyhead]

[quote=voicey]

I've now taken to blacklisting recruitment agencies that send me muppets.

quote]

You're going to run out of agencies very veyr quickly.

[voicey]

Marty Funkhouser said:

Erm....whats the correct answer???

A pound today isn't worth the same tomorrow. Following on from this is the concept of discounting future cash flows back to today - the principle which forms the basis for valuing all financial instruments.

[voicey]

spikeyhead said:

voicey said:

I've now taken to blacklisting recruitment agencies that send me muppets.

You're going to run out of agencies very veyr quickly.

I'm down to two!

Edited by voicey on Thursday 1st July 13:37

[Stevenj214]

Marty Funkhouser said:

voicey said:

Hiring is also a friggin nightmare for me. My team runs the PnL and balance sheet for the non-liner derivative trading businesses, so they need to know the concept of how to value different financial instruments - it is amazing the amount of people who claim to have experience with these products that fall flat on my opening (very easy) question...

Me: Tell me what you know about the time value of money.
Candidate: Erm, not sure.
Me: That will be all, thanks for your time.

I've now taken to blacklisting recruitment agencies that send me muppets.

Edit for dodgy typos.

Edited by voicey on Thursday 1st July 11:00

Erm....whats the correct answer???

Women = Problems (Evil)

Edited by Stevenj214 on Thursday 1st July 13:45

[Stevenj214]

[Original Poster]

I also know someone who may be relevant although they are a contractor only, on an HSMP and uses .NET 3.5 and not 4,0.

Let me know if you are potentially interested though!

[PintOfKittens]

My CV Looks close, but my background is mostly tech architecture for large ecommerce sites, and have no financial background

[Dupont666]

Original Poster said:

I also know someone who may be relevant although they are a contractor only, on an HSMP and uses .NET 3.5 and not 4,0.

Let me know if you are potentially interested though!

got to be a permanent, we wont consider a contractor for such a role, especially when a contractor could work for us for a few months and bugger off leaving us in the st, were as a permie shouldnt as they can be tied down longer.

[zippy3x]

Starting to see why you're having problems recruiting

I've been contracting for about 5 years now, and although I have spent lenghy times on each contract, I assume thats me out of the running.

How exactly do you intend to tie a permie down longer than a contractor?

[dilbert]

Dupont666 said:

Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
CAB is dead... Acropolis is gone... All heil Silverlight.

Gimme Win32 every time.

I'm not surprised you can't find people. This is relatively new, relatively short lived, niche technology. I guess people didn't buy in, so it all moves on.

Personally my attitude would be to develop proprietary technology where the sell by date is constrained to the future by the sheer number of people tied into it, but I understand that you don't agree.

Given that I can see that, and understand your predicament, may I ask why you don't look for people like yourselves? With additional people that have skills that aren't in advance of your own, you don't have to have doubts about their ability. More importantly, you have more resource to be pushing the hamster wheel around.

When I talk about the hamster wheel, that's not the development one. It's the learning one.

A really positive way for you to look at this from your perspective, is that if you have more resource you can learn the good new stuff, and the newbie can pick up all old stuff. You can gain self satisfaction from patronising him because you know it inside out.

A really good way to sell it to the newbie, is the six figure salary.

Edited by dilbert on Thursday 1st July 17:34

[Dupont666]

dilbert said:

Dupont666 said:

Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
CAB is dead... Acropolis is gone... All heil Silverlight.

Gimme Win32 every time.

I'm not surprised you can't find people. This is relatively new, relatively short lived, niche technology. I guess people didn't buy in, so it all moves on.

Personally my attitude would be to develop proprietary technology where the sell by date is constrained to the future by the sheer number of people tied into it, but I understand that you don't agree.

Given that I can see that, and understand your predicament, may I ask why you don't look for people like yourselves? With additional people that have skills that aren't in advance of your own, you don't have to have doubts about their ability. More importantly, you have more resource to be pushing the hamster wheel around.

When I talk about the hamster wheel, that's not the development one. It's the learning one.

A really positive way for you to look at this from your perspective, is that if you have more resource you can learn the good new stuff, and the newbie can pick up all old stuff. You can gain self satisfaction from patronising him because you know it inside out.

A really good way to sell it to the newbie, is the six figure salary.

Edited by dilbert on Thursday 1st July 17:34

To help...

CAB was used in the current system, so was syncfusion, I dont like it, dont want it but thats what they used

We want someone above us as just getting another developer wont aid the evolution of the current system and since the 3 of us doing the interviews are contractors they are getting a little scared that we all have nearly a years experience on it and they have yet to get a permie to data share with.

a normal developer wouldnt be on a 6 figure salary so that couldnt be dangled as a carrot, most of the people we are seeing are on the 80-85k salary so its a step up for them.

Also you mention evolution and learning new things, whilst that is good in theory, we cant do that during work hours too much as that would make it very expensive to pay us to learn new skills with no productive work coming out... Do like the idea of taunting the newbie though.

[dilbert]

Dupont666 said:

dilbert said:

Dupont666 said:

Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
CAB is dead... Acropolis is gone... All heil Silverlight.

Gimme Win32 every time.

I'm not surprised you can't find people. This is relatively new, relatively short lived, niche technology. I guess people didn't buy in, so it all moves on.

Personally my attitude would be to develop proprietary technology where the sell by date is constrained to the future by the sheer number of people tied into it, but I understand that you don't agree.

Given that I can see that, and understand your predicament, may I ask why you don't look for people like yourselves? With additional people that have skills that aren't in advance of your own, you don't have to have doubts about their ability. More importantly, you have more resource to be pushing the hamster wheel around.

When I talk about the hamster wheel, that's not the development one. It's the learning one.

A really positive way for you to look at this from your perspective, is that if you have more resource you can learn the good new stuff, and the newbie can pick up all old stuff. You can gain self satisfaction from patronising him because you know it inside out.

A really good way to sell it to the newbie, is the six figure salary.

Edited by dilbert on Thursday 1st July 17:34

To help...

CAB was used in the current system, so was syncfusion, I dont like it, dont want it but thats what they used

We want someone above us as just getting another developer wont aid the evolution of the current system and since the 3 of us doing the interviews are contractors they are getting a little scared that we all have nearly a years experience on it and they have yet to get a permie to data share with.

a normal developer wouldnt be on a 6 figure salary so that couldnt be dangled as a carrot, most of the people we are seeing are on the 80-85k salary so its a step up for them.

Also you mention evolution and learning new things, whilst that is good in theory, we cant do that during work hours too much as that would make it very expensive to pay us to learn new skills with no productive work coming out... Do like the idea of taunting the newbie though.

I don't think I'll say I feel sorry for you because you're getting a pretty big chunk of wedge.
I'll perhaps ask another question however. I'll understand if you don't answer it.

My own experience with Win32 is pretty deep (there's no way I'm in the frame for this job - for example). What I know about Win32 is that it's pretty straightforward. Nevertheless, there are bits of it that don't work properly. When you get right down to it, they've been that way for so long, no-one can remember when the problem started.

"Ooooh, it's been doing that since NT3.51"

The problem is that Microsoft can't fix it because everyone has worked around it in their own peculiar way. Microsoft have introduced workarounds themselves. Even workarounds around workarounds. Let alone everybody else, they don't even know what their workarounds are.

When you look back (or perhaps across) at MFC, it kind of got worse. I'm not going to ravage MFC because it was a step forward.

Back then I realised that there were two paths. The first is that you go proprietary and you develop and learn your own. The second is that you go with Microsoft, and you re-learn theirs every time.

The one thing you can't do, is not learn.

And that decided it for me.

(Why do people never learn?)

Edited by dilbert on Thursday 1st July 18:13

[Original Poster]

Dupont666 said:

Original Poster said:

I also know someone who may be relevant although they are a contractor only, on an HSMP and uses .NET 3.5 and not 4,0.

Let me know if you are potentially interested though!

got to be a permanent, we wont consider a contractor for such a role, especially when a contractor could work for us for a few months and bugger off leaving us in the st, were as a permie shouldnt as they can be tied down longer.

No problems, I thought that would be the case but thought I'd mention it anyway

zippy3x said:

Starting to see why you're having problems recruiting

I've been contracting for about 5 years now, and although I have spent lenghy times on each contract, I assume thats me out of the running.

How exactly do you intend to tie a permie down longer than a contractor?

When a role is paying £100,000+ you can very easily get away with 3/6 month notice periods.