Sickness Policy

[Ding]

Have just read someone elses post about 3 strike and you are out. I have a similar problem (which is why I am lying awake worrying/stressed!

Where I work the sickness policy is 4 occasions or 18 days in a rolling 12 month period and you have to have a 'counselling' session with your boss, if you are off again you have to be 'counselled' by your boss and someone from HR, and get a verbal warning. Off agin within that 12 month period and you get a written warning!

Now I have come home from work tonight to a letter to say that from 1st Oct if you activate this system your annual pay rise will be affected!

Now I understand the need to keep an eye on time taken off sick but I work in a highly stressful industry where staff are daily put it situations where we could either catch infections from others or indeed infect other people. Yes you have guessed it I work for the NHS!

So far in the last year I had two days off last December, think that was a cold, 1 day in Feb with sickness and diarhoea went back in for one day and realised I should not be there and took another two days (so counts as 2 episodes and I did bring work home to do!) then I fractured a bone in my foot and damaged the ligaments and took 7 days off!

Would you appreciate the situation I have just been put in where, I have had a viral chest infection and did not take time off for fear of a warning, meaning that I probably infected my colleagues and I worked for the last three weeks at less than my best! Where if I had taken the first week off I would (probably) got rid of the bug and gone back and been working at 100%.
At least I am not a patient facing member of staff but how soon before nurses and doctors and receptionists are in the same situation, where they are in work working at less than their best or worse with infections they could pass on to patients!

Meanwhile for the last 4 months I have been doing two jobs as I have been covering a job of someone who left as well as my own! Without extra pay (don't get paid overtime)or even a thanks!

Needless to say I am now seriously stressed about this. They knew when they employed me that I would be prone to infections as I have asthma.

So much for the 'Caring' professions! I have never had much time off work in any of my previous jobs and always given 110% but am starting to feel that I would be better off just sloping along doing the minimum I can get away with as it seems to work for some people!

I am now seriously looking for some other way of paying my mortgage!

Sorry for rant but as you can tell by the time of night I am posting this I am losing sleep over this situation now! which in turn will make me ill and I will have to have more time off! Typical!

Anyway going to apply for a job with messers S & T et al LLP and wear the two sizes too small pink shirt!

[ymwoods]

Ding said:

wear the two sizes too small pink shirt!

Pics?

As for the sickness policy...I think it is more to scare people into not having fake sick days.

If you really ARE ill and you can proove it then I can't see how in hell they can do anything unless your taking the piss with the amount your off sick but taking the piss or not would depend on the circumstances, 18 days for some problems is going to be nothing.

I would be interested to hear from anyone that has been "done" by this system and how the employer actually made it work without leaving themselves wide open.

[jagracer]

ymwoods said:

Ding said:

wear the two sizes too small pink shirt!

Pics?

As for the sickness policy...I think it is more to scare people into not having fake sick days.

If you really ARE ill and you can proove it then I can't see how in hell they can do anything unless your taking the piss with the amount your off sick but taking the piss or not would depend on the circumstances, 18 days for some problems is going to be nothing.

I would be interested to hear from anyone that has been "done" by this system and how the employer actually made it work without leaving themselves wide open.

This type of policy is not aimed at the people who are genuinely ill, it's aimed at the Monday morning sickies or people who give up at the slightest sign of a sniffle or cough which is rife in the NHS. Most places now do back to work interviews after sickness even if it's only to make sure you are fit enough to be back at work.

[bigandclever]

I'd agree it's a policy aimed at the hangover and 'free' holiday brigade, and not those who are genuinely ill. I presume you can still self-cert anyway, so you don't actually need to 'prove' your reasons for time off.

I must admit, though, I'm struggling slightly to see why this is a scary situation:

you have a load of sick time, you get a chat with your boss;
you then have more sick time, and get a verbal warning;
you then have even more sick time, and get a written warning;
and at the end of it something might happen with your annual pay rise.

ETA [patronising] Look around you, there are countless thousands who haven't been getting annual pay rises for ages, and no doubt won't for ages to come. 'You' don't deserve a pay rise just because 'you' turned up for work for a year - or, in the case of the idlers and piss takers, didn't turn up at all. [/patronising]

I read it as (on a Mon to Fri week) 18 days sick is practically a month off work over the year before anyone bats an eyelid, and then you only have a chat with your boss. You don't know how good that really is.

Experience tells me you will keep on doing two jobs for as long as management can get away with it, so it's down to you to say enough's enough.

Edited by bigandclever on Saturday 11th September 08:37

[Engineer1]

Patient facing roles in the NHS do need a more generous sickness policy as on some occassions you have a sickness than can be passed onto patients or sickness that can be passed on from patients. How many people voluntarily go and hang round sick people?

[jagracer]

musclecarmad said:

permanent health insurance is your friend in this situation.

so many people i know don't have it - what if you get a serious illness like cancer, MS or even depression, stress etc you can be buggered by the sound of your contract.

He works for the NHS FFS, how would he be buggered? The NHS is full of people who think they are more stressed than the rest of us or just plain lazy and take time off for no good reason, how anyone take one day off for a cold is beyond me.

[Deva Link]

Ding said:

I have a similar problem (which is why I am lying awake worrying/stressed!

.....

Meanwhile for the last 4 months I have been doing two jobs as I have been covering a job of someone who left as well as my own! Without extra pay (don't get paid overtime)or even a thanks!

Ask to see Occupational Health and let them know you're stressed about the workload and it's interfering with your sleep and making you ill. But it probably wouldn't be a good idea to say you're stressed about the sick policy itself.

[Engineer1]

One day off for a cold is sensible if you are working with patients with seriously compromised immune systems or would you prefer the nurse or doctor to go in infect the patient and make recovery either less likely or take much longer costing more?

[Conian]

if yuo work for the NHS and you are sick, then being at work is the best place to be, with docs n nurses not far away to tend to you just dont do any work

[bigandclever]

Engineer1 said:

One day off for a cold is sensible if you are working with patients with seriously compromised immune systems or would you prefer the nurse or doctor to go in infect the patient and make recovery either less likely or take much longer costing more?

Agreed, but we're talking about 'back-office' staff...

Ding said:

At least I am not a patient facing member of staff

[jagracer]

musclecarmad said:

jagracer said:

musclecarmad said:

permanent health insurance is your friend in this situation.

so many people i know don't have it - what if you get a serious illness like cancer, MS or even depression, stress etc you can be buggered by the sound of your contract.

He works for the NHS FFS, how would he be buggered? The NHS is full of people who think they are more stressed than the rest of us or just plain lazy and take time off for no good reason, how anyone take one day off for a cold is beyond me.

i agree and think most public sector workers are lazy. i know one woman who works for the nhs and is constantly off work sick and she has just had a promotion. - i'm talking about 6 months off per year sick for the past 5 years - just a lazy waste of space really.

but this guys contract seems quite strict.

most places have 2 weeks per year sick pay or some good ones 6 months full pay then 6 months half pay.

Just spoke to swmbo who works for the NHS and she says here sickness criteria is far worse than the OP's one so he is probably one of those that likes to swing the lead. If he wants stress he should try where my wife works, she's doing two jobs, has to yet again re- apply for her own job due to HCT's merging again and a £60M cut in budget.
My company's sick policy is if you have more than one sickness incident in 12 months you don't get paid for the next one unless there is a very good reason.

[Ding]

Ok so I will try to remember all the comments.
I am realtively new to the NHS and have spent over 30 years in the commercial sector! Never had anyone have issue with my sick leave before, most years not taken any!
I know that there are a lot of wasters in the public sector and have witnessed much that infuriates me and would not be permissable in the real world. I am trying to improve things from the inside rather than shouting pointlessly from the outside.
My department straddles both the health service and industry so we have to adjust to suit both types of working practices.
Although I have said I am back office! I do have contact with patients from time to time and feel it irresponsible to wander into HDU when I am feeling under the weather and am sure if it was you in there or a relative of yours you would not be amused!

I have a health condition (which they knew about when I applied for the job) which means that I am susceptible to infection myself.

The two jobs situation:- I realise that a lot of people are in this situation and the remedy is in process. As with a lot of others we are all stretched in our normal positions so the addition of extra duties has added to the burden.

Maybe to some this appears to be whingeing, but the point I was trying to make is that in our Trust they seem to be using the same methods as elsewhere in society, instead of finding out who the malingerers are and dealing with them they are changing the rules for all and will lose the goodwill of the majority!

[Deva Link]

musclecarmad said:

i agree and think most public sector workers are lazy.

I guess you're entitled to your thoughts.

musclecarmad said:

i know one woman who works for the nhs and is constantly off work sick and she has just had a promotion. - i'm talking about 6 months off per year sick for the past 5 years - just a lazy waste of space really.

I'm struggling to imagine circumstances in which someone who was off for 6mths per year for 5yrs would be promoted.

Someone posted the other day that "they knew a woman" who took 6mths off on full pay, then went back for a few days then took another 6mths off again on full pay.
The problem is that that's not true either - the NHS sick pay system doesn't work like that. Full sick pay is only payable for 6mths in 12, and it takes 6 years to get to that level in the first place.

Edited by Deva Link on Saturday 11th September 22:54

[The jiffle king]

Ding,
13 years ago, I worked for a company which had a very similar policy. After the counselling, it was verbal, written, final written and then dismissal. It may look harsh at first, but the number of occasions of absence and days off to get sacked was loads. It also did stop people abusing the system as they did not want to go above a verbal warning in case they really were ill. The unions were not happy when we enforced the counselling, and the verbal warnings, but only 3-4 out of 180 staff got anywhere near a written and sickness reduced. Also the staff who were genuinely ill were given a little leeway at times if they were approaching another warning. It felt harsh to enforce however people saw verbal warnings as a part of the job and it never impacted their promotion opportunities unless they were abusing the system.
One other chap abused the bereavement leave having 9 deaths in the family in 18 months with 7 funerals on Saturdays.... really!!! We called him the Grim Reaper as his family must have been particularly unlucky

I say don't worry about it
T-J-K

[NoNeed]

The jiffle king said:

Ding,
13 years ago, I worked for a company which had a very similar policy. After the counselling, it was verbal, written, final written and then dismissal. It may look harsh at first, but the number of occasions of absence and days off to get sacked was loads. It also did stop people abusing the system as they did not want to go above a verbal warning in case they really were ill. The unions were not happy when we enforced the counselling, and the verbal warnings, but only 3-4 out of 180 staff got anywhere near a written and sickness reduced. Also the staff who were genuinely ill were given a little leeway at times if they were approaching another warning. It felt harsh to enforce however people saw verbal warnings as a part of the job and it never impacted their promotion opportunities unless they were abusing the system.
One other chap abused the bereavement leave having 9 deaths in the family in 18 months with 7 funerals on Saturdays.... really!!! We called him the Grim Reaper as his family must have been particularly unlucky

I say don't worry about it
T-J-K

Ha HA, I worked with a guy whose entire family dies at least twice.

[Ding]

Most of the staff I know who are worried are the ones who are not habitual sickies but have had bad experiences recently.
I broke my foot and tore ligaments!
One colleague had an operation on her shoulder and took 16 off
Another is due to go into hospital for an op early next year and will need 10 days off if she recovers well but if not may need more.

Our comments to the boss have been we understand they need to get the sick levels down, but unless there is room for sense to be applied they will lose the goodwill of the staff who normally give freely of their time. as most of us feel what we do is more a vocation as we could earn at lot more elsewhere.

As to the comments about public sector staff being slackers and timewasters and greedy. I agree there are some who give the rest of us a bad name, but I don't see any more than I did in the commercial sector.
There are always some people who seem to be able to do little and get away with it!

[randlemarcus]

Ding said:

Our comments to the boss have been we understand they need to get the sick levels down, but unless there is room for sense to be applied they will lose the goodwill of the staff who normally give freely of their time. as most of us feel what we do is more a vocation as we could earn at lot more elsewhere.

There has been sense applied, ffs. 18 days before you get hauled up on it?

As for giving of time freely, how much overtime did you do without claiming for it? If you claim for it, its not free, if its simply contracted hours, its not free.

As for earning more elsewhere, crack on then. You chose decent pension and a relaxed attitude to efficiency as part of the bargain.

[GV]

Ok there are 3 issues here.

1. Your illness makes no difference to your attendance record - it's the ability for you to attend work on a regular basis that has prompted your employer's response - not the nature of your illness.

2. If you are able demonstrate that the stress is attribituable to your workload, your employer is legally obliged to address the matter under the relevant Health & Safety and Employment legislation.

3. If your Chest condition is long term and is related to Asthma or any longterm chest related illness then your condition will be covered under the Disability Discrimination Act. Your employer is then legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments to accomodate your condition before dealing with your attendance record in a punitive manner. Chest illnesses and stress are inter linked though under employment legislation stress is not recognised as a medical condition though the route causes are.

How do I know? I'm a HR and Employment Legal specialist. I also dismiss people for sick related absences for a large company delivers your mail.

Hope that helps...

[edc]

Get them to look at a Bradford factor style system. This will not penalise the one off but perhaps long ish absence but will catch those habitual offenders or those whose absence is so frequent that it affects the operation.

[Engineer1]

randlemarcus said:

Ding said:

Our comments to the boss have been we understand they need to get the sick levels down, but unless there is room for sense to be applied they will lose the goodwill of the staff who normally give freely of their time. as most of us feel what we do is more a vocation as we could earn at lot more elsewhere.

There has been sense applied, ffs. 18 days before you get hauled up on it?

As for giving of time freely, how much overtime did you do without claiming for it? If you claim for it, its not free, if its simply contracted hours, its not free.

As for earning more elsewhere, crack on then. You chose decent pension and a relaxed attitude to efficiency as part of the bargain.

Surely the point is if you turn up to the meeting with a doctor's note then you are fine, turn up with a series of self certifications that happened on Mondays, Fridays and the Tuesday after bank holidays and they may be less likely to accept it is real justified illness. Besides it is only a Verbal big fking whoop it's on your record for 6 months and only more sickness will get it progressed.