Laying workers off

[Mr AJ]

Is there a protocol to doing it?.

I've been working for a company for the last few months, All was going well until the last few weeks where they was unable to get stock in - So we was unable to install anything. Seeing as the Engineers are all Salaried we've all assumed we still get paid for the days there was no work - We was on-call with instructions to keep our phones on just incase they needed us!.

Roll around to payday today and the company has decided we are infact not getting paid for this time (3weeks!) because we was 'Laid Off' - At no point has anyone from the company told a single engineer we had been laid off - We was just told to wait at home for the stock to arrive!.
Do i - and the other lads - Have a single leg to stand on? Not one of us has ever signed a contract - Even the lads who've been there years. Everything has been agree'd verbally, the terms have never been written down. The whole thing is very informal, No job interview - Working from home, I've never even been to their offices.

Am i right in thinking i am currently cruising up a well known creek without a paddle?.

[KrazyIvan]

odd one, are you paid "cash in hand", or into your bank on the same day every month? are you given paid anual leave? Do you submit a time sheet and get paid only for the hours you work, or have you always been paid the same regardless of work volume? Do you get a P60 at the end of the year? Does the company pay your TAX or are you PAYE?

Just trying to get a better picture of the set up, might be worth getting all the info sorted and speak to CAB. Just be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.

I am not sure a company has the right to lay you off retrospectivly (sp?)

Oh, and be ready for the person who will be a long shortly to be of no help but point out its "We were not We was"

Edited by KrazyIvan on Thursday 30th September 10:52

[Mr AJ]

KrazyIvan said:

odd one, are you paid "cash in hand", or into your bank on the same day every month? are you given paid anual leave? Do you submit a time sheet and get paid only for the hours you work, or have you always been paid the same regardless of work volume? Do you get a P60 at the end of the year? Does the company pay your TAX or are you PAYE?

Just trying to get a better picture of the set up, might be worth getting all the info sorted and speak to CAB. Just be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you.

I am not sure a company has the right to lay you off retrospectivly (sp?)

Oh, and be ready for the person who will be a long shortly to be of no help but point out its "We were not We was"

Edited by KrazyIvan on Thursday 30th September 10:52

We're PAYE, i think - We're paid Directly into our bank account monthly + expenses as and when we need them.
We have paid annual leave.
Time sheets are submitted daily/weekly.
I've not been here long, so no idea what the system has been like previously for low work loads but the lads that have been here longer have all been paid for it before now. We usually get paid for 9-5 regardless of what time we finish as those are our contracted hours, Anything outside of these from front door to front door is paid as overtime.
P60 i'm not sure as i've not completed a financial year here yet, But i had to fill in a form when i started about tax as i didn't have a P45 - So i'd imagine so.

As for biting the hand that feeds, I'm already looking for new employment now. I've enjoyed working for the company so far - But i told them in no uncertain terms when i first started that i was looking for employed work because my Mrs goes on Maternity leave this month and the only income would be mine - So i couldn't risk having periods of no work with no pay!.

If it was just a few days i wouldn't kick up a fuss about it, But its 3 weeks out of a 4 week working month - So over £1k of my expected income will be missing - And they can't even give me a date for when they expect me to start working (Therefore earning!) again - So i'll be lucky if i can even pay my bills this month - Let alone pay for my personal expenses when they expect me to work away from home again!.

[AJS-]

You [/i]were[i]. I was. He, she and it was. They were, and we were too.

[Mr AJ]

AJS- said:

You [/i]were[i]. I was. He, she and it was. They were, and we were too.

were

Thank you for your concise and helpful input. Are you this much of a waste of space in real life too, Or are you putting in a special effort just for me?.

Edited by Mr AJ on Friday 1st October 19:33

[Stevenj214]

You was robbed.

[Engineer1]

From experience there is a statutory layoff pay, it is virtually feck all but you should get something.

[AJS-]

Mr AJ said:

AJS- said:

You [/i]were[i]. I was. He, she and it was. They were, and we were too.

were

Thank you for your concise and helpful input. Are you this much of a waste of space in real life too, Or are you putting in a special effort just for me?.

Sometimes I is.

No need for the capital "O" after a comma either.

[Mr AJ]

AJS- said:

Mr AJ said:

AJS- said:

You [/i]were[i]. I was. He, she and it was. They were, and we were too.

were

Thank you for your concise and helpful input. Are you this much of a waste of space in real life too, Or are you putting in a special effort just for me?.

Sometimes I is.

No need for the capital "O" after a comma either.

Can i ask why you feel the need to do this?. Does it make you feel better about yourself?. Do you pick out problems like this because you was bullied as a child, Or because Mummy didn't hug you enough?. My guess is in the real world your an insignificant little man, So you come on here and attempt to belittle others in a hopeless attempt to create your own air of superiority. If you don't have anything constructive to say with regards to the actual topic - Don't bother replying - Perhaps try going outside instead? It's probably been a while...

[Bullett]

Mr AJ said:

... told them in no uncertain terms when i first started that i was looking for employed work because...

Why would you say this if it was a permy salaried role? Under what conditions was the job offered?
I don't think we have the whole story.

[AJS-]

Mr AJ said:

AJS- said:

Mr AJ said:

AJS- said:

You [/i]were[i]. I was. He, she and it was. They were, and we were too.

were

Thank you for your concise and helpful input. Are you this much of a waste of space in real life too, Or are you putting in a special effort just for me?.

Sometimes I is.

No need for the capital "O" after a comma either.

Can i ask why you feel the need to do this?. Does it make you feel better about yourself?. Do you pick out problems like this because you was bullied as a child, Or because Mummy didn't hug you enough?. My guess is in the real world your an insignificant little man, So you come on here and attempt to belittle others in a hopeless attempt to create your own air of superiority. If you don't have anything constructive to say with regards to the actual topic - Don't bother replying - Perhaps try going outside instead? It's probably been a while...

Well it seems to have hit a nerve, which sort of does make me feel significant. Thanks!

It just reads strangely when someone type "So we was talking..."

Thought I would point this out. Who knows, you might even learn something and sound less like a wker next time.

[Mr AJ]

AJS- said:

Mr AJ said:

AJS- said:

Mr AJ said:

AJS- said:

You [/i]were[i]. I was. He, she and it was. They were, and we were too.

were

Thank you for your concise and helpful input. Are you this much of a waste of space in real life too, Or are you putting in a special effort just for me?.

Sometimes I is.

No need for the capital "O" after a comma either.

Can i ask why you feel the need to do this?. Does it make you feel better about yourself?. Do you pick out problems like this because you was bullied as a child, Or because Mummy didn't hug you enough?. My guess is in the real world your an insignificant little man, So you come on here and attempt to belittle others in a hopeless attempt to create your own air of superiority. If you don't have anything constructive to say with regards to the actual topic - Don't bother replying - Perhaps try going outside instead? It's probably been a while...

Well it seems to have hit a nerve, which sort of does make me feel significant. Thanks!

It just reads strangely when someone type "So we was talking..."

Thought I would point this out. Who knows, you might even learn something and sound less like a wker next time.

Yes bud, It did hit a nerve - I'm asking for advice on a situation which has come out of nowhere and is going to have a severely detrimental effect on my family. Instead of offering advice you decide to try and belittle me over insignificant details in an attempt to make yourself feel superior. Don't try and bullst saying you was trying to teach me something. You did it because its the 'Cool' thing on PH and you wanted to try to earn yourself some brownie points.

Perhaps next time you attempt a reply, You should try and give some advice on the actual topic instead of picking apart grammatical flaws - maybe then you will sound less like a wker next time.

Bullett said:

Mr AJ said:

... told them in no uncertain terms when i first started that i was looking for employed work because...

Why would you say this if it was a permy salaried role? Under what conditions was the job offered?
I don't think we have the whole story.

I'm not entirely sure how this has confused you but i'll try to clear it up - Before starting here i was Self employed, Working as a sole trader, So during the conversation i had with the Company about the role they asked why i was ceasing trading. That reasong being i needed a fixed, Guarantee'd income. It's also not just me thats in this boat, It's every Engineer that works for the company. Everyone has been 'Laid Off' but not informed about it until payday.

[don4l]

Mr AJ said:

Is there a protocol to doing it?.

I've been working for a company for the last few months, All was going well until the last few weeks where they were unable to get stock in - So we was unable to install anything. Seeing as the Engineers are all Salaried we've all assumed we still get paid for the days there was no work - We was on-call with instructions to keep our phones on just incase they needed us!.

Roll around to payday today and the company has decided we are infact not getting paid for this time (3weeks!) because we was 'Laid Off' - At no point has anyone from the company told a single engineer we had been laid off - We was just told to wait at home for the stock to arrive!.
Do i - and the other lads - Have a single leg to stand on? Not one of us has ever signed a contract - Even the lads who've been there years. Everything has been agree'd verbally, the terms have never been written down. The whole thing is very informal, No job interview - Working from home, I've never even been to their offices.

Am i right in thinking i am currently cruising up a well known creek without a paddle?.

Both of the highlighted bits suggest that your employer is in deep financial trouble.

So, to answer your question: Yes, you are very likely up the creek without a paddle!

An employer won't miss the payroll unless he has used up all the options. After all, the business cannot carry on without staff. Staff who don't get paid will leave in short order.

The fact that stock shortages caused the problem probably means that there are no suppliers willing to give credit, and also that your company cannot pay "cash with order".

It really sounds like you need to start looking for another job NOW.


Don
--

[Bullett]

Ok, fair enough. With the information you gave us I got the impression that the role you were taking was not 100% guaranteed work.

[anonymous-user]

Check your contract(or common practice) - there may be a clause/history allowing them to lay you off without pay so check

It’s written in your contract(you dont have one)
You’ve verbally agreed it with your employer
It’s in an agreement negotiated by a trade union
There’s a national agreement for the industry
There’s clear evidence that it’s an established custom and practice

but it sounds like they're screwed financially, so dont waste time, find another job immediately.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 4th October 18:07

[plg]

wsurfa said:

Check your contract - there may be a clause allowing them to lay you off without pay

Would be classed as an unfair contract term, surely?

Either way, you are entitled to certain things.

Start at:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyA...

• Also, I suggest you see the Citizen Advice Bureau as a starter for 10.
• If you have any union membership, talk to them.
• Talk to ACAS: 08457 47 47 47 - confidential advice
• Check your household insurance - sometimes there is a free legal advice line (for any issues, not just house related)

Edit to say: either way, sounds like they are screwed. No equipment means they have been refused trade credit, probably for non payment. Sadly most businesses die not because of profitability, but because of cash flow issues. Further evidenced by a lack of cash to meet their payroll obligations. Probably also subject to a winding up order from their main suppliers. Just a guess.

Edited by plg on Monday 4th October 18:14

[anonymous-user]

plg said:

wsurfa said:

Check your contract - there may be a clause allowing them to lay you off without pay

Would be classed as an unfair contract term, surely?

Either way, you are entitled to certain things.

Start at:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyA...

• Also, I suggest you see the Citizen Advice Bureau as a starter for 10.
• If you have any union membership, talk to them.
• Talk to ACAS: 08457 47 47 47 - confidential advice
• Check your household insurance - sometimes there is a free legal advice line (for any issues, not just house related)

Edit to say: either way, sounds like they are screwed. No equipment means they have been refused trade credit, probably for non payment. Sadly most businesses die not because of profitability, but because of cash flow issues. Further evidenced by a lack of cash to meet their payroll obligations. Probably also subject to a winding up order from their main suppliers. Just a guess.

Edited by plg on Monday 4th October 18:14

No it wouldn't be an unfair contract term - in fact it's likely to be referenced on ACAS specfically

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 4th October 18:18

[Burrito]

wsurfa said:

plg said:

wsurfa said:

Check your contract - there may be a clause allowing them to lay you off without pay

Would be classed as an unfair contract term, surely?

Either way, you are entitled to certain things.

Start at:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyA...

• Also, I suggest you see the Citizen Advice Bureau as a starter for 10.
• If you have any union membership, talk to them.
• Talk to ACAS: 08457 47 47 47 - confidential advice
• Check your household insurance - sometimes there is a free legal advice line (for any issues, not just house related)

Edit to say: either way, sounds like they are screwed. No equipment means they have been refused trade credit, probably for non payment. Sadly most businesses die not because of profitability, but because of cash flow issues. Further evidenced by a lack of cash to meet their payroll obligations. Probably also subject to a winding up order from their main suppliers. Just a guess.

Edited by plg on Monday 4th October 18:14

No it wouldn't be an unfair contract term - in fact it's likely to be referenced on ACAS specfically

Edited by wsurfa on Monday 4th October 18:18

Retrospective lay-off would be an unfair term though, wouldn't it?

Not that I believe this is being laid off, this is a firm unable to pay their staff. LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB NOW.

[plg]

Burrito said:

Retrospective lay-off would be an unfair term though, wouldn't it?

Not that I believe this is being laid off, this is a firm unable to pay their staff. LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB NOW.

I agree - retrospective is unfair term.

[anonymous-user]

Burrito said:

wsurfa said:

plg said:

wsurfa said:

Check your contract - there may be a clause allowing them to lay you off without pay

Would be classed as an unfair contract term, surely?

Either way, you are entitled to certain things.

Start at:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyA...

• Also, I suggest you see the Citizen Advice Bureau as a starter for 10.
• If you have any union membership, talk to them.
• Talk to ACAS: 08457 47 47 47 - confidential advice
• Check your household insurance - sometimes there is a free legal advice line (for any issues, not just house related)

Edit to say: either way, sounds like they are screwed. No equipment means they have been refused trade credit, probably for non payment. Sadly most businesses die not because of profitability, but because of cash flow issues. Further evidenced by a lack of cash to meet their payroll obligations. Probably also subject to a winding up order from their main suppliers. Just a guess.

Edited by plg on Monday 4th October 18:14

No it wouldn't be an unfair contract term - in fact it's likely to be referenced on ACAS specfically

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 4th October 18:18

Retrospective lay-off would be an unfair term though, wouldn't it?

Not that I believe this is being laid off, this is a firm unable to pay their staff. LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB NOW.

Laying off is often used when cash flow is an issue. If you are asked to stay at home due to no work being available, and your contract/agreement/practice is not to be paid then it is legal. You do not have to be told that you have been 'laid off' at the time, as you have been asked to remain at home.

You are entitled to statutory guarantee pay even if you have an unpaid lay off agreement, unfortunately it's c£20/day and capped at c£100

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 4th October 18:43