Beginner Steps To Be A Programmer
Discussion
After an interesting read of the other thread "Programming As A Career" I've decided to try my best and learn a language (or 2) this year. My financial circustances simply wouldn't allow me to take any Junior roles (at least for another year anyway) plus I'm 33 with a wife & kids so I'm sure to be laughed at come interview time with them expecting someone fresh out of college/uni.
Being a gamer I would certainly like to program games but I understand it's probably highly sought after by people with much more experience than the average programmer so as it stands anything would do in all honesty. Currently I'm unemployed but hopefully not for much longer. The previous 13 years I've been a CAD draughtsman which quite simply bores the living daylights outta me. In college I touched on Assembly Language & Turbo PASCAL, after that was a short course on C Unix platform which was followed by a VB course... then CAD jobs.
C++ & maybe Java are probably going to be my focus of learning as they seem to be the most popular (don't shout at me for that lol). So my question's are...
What's the best books to learn from (if books are the best choice)? (I've found the Dummies books quite helpfull in the past lol)
What websites are easy to use for references (or even to replace the books option)?
What's the best way of getting Free/Cheap recognised qualifications?
Once I/You feel I/You learnt enough, are Junior vacancies the only way to get into this line of work?
I would greatly appreciate ANY help on this & I'm sure there are many others in a similar position who doesn't quite know how to pursue a similar job & simply couldn't go back to college/uni to get the nec qual's.
Thanks
Being a gamer I would certainly like to program games but I understand it's probably highly sought after by people with much more experience than the average programmer so as it stands anything would do in all honesty. Currently I'm unemployed but hopefully not for much longer. The previous 13 years I've been a CAD draughtsman which quite simply bores the living daylights outta me. In college I touched on Assembly Language & Turbo PASCAL, after that was a short course on C Unix platform which was followed by a VB course... then CAD jobs.
C++ & maybe Java are probably going to be my focus of learning as they seem to be the most popular (don't shout at me for that lol). So my question's are...
What's the best books to learn from (if books are the best choice)? (I've found the Dummies books quite helpfull in the past lol)
What websites are easy to use for references (or even to replace the books option)?
What's the best way of getting Free/Cheap recognised qualifications?
Once I/You feel I/You learnt enough, are Junior vacancies the only way to get into this line of work?
I would greatly appreciate ANY help on this & I'm sure there are many others in a similar position who doesn't quite know how to pursue a similar job & simply couldn't go back to college/uni to get the nec qual's.
Thanks
FellowPazzini said:
plus I'm 33 with a wife & kids
This will be you biggest issue once you are not employed any longer. As a beginner, if you want to be really good then you need to invest a lot of time and it isn't family friendly.If you are unemployed why can you not take any junior roles? assuming decent benfits? IF you are unable to take a junior role then you are kinda stuffed as if your CV doesnt show experience senior work is going to be hard to get.
I would suggest PHP with a view to making spare cash by doing websites on the side with a full day job.Alternatively mobile phone apps.
I own several software companies and employ around 50 programmers.
Every one of them is a graduate with some form of computing degree, quite a number have Masters. They are all, in the nicest way, geeks. They live and breathe computing, at work and at home, it's not a job, it's their lives.
It wasn't always like this, I started as a programmer and I was never like that, but if you advertise a technical role today you get a lot of CVs from people who are like this. And they are good, as a 33 year old with no background in it you haven't a hope of competing.
That's as a programmer, of course there are plenty of other roles in computing/IT that may work for you, but I doubt that programming is one of them.
Every one of them is a graduate with some form of computing degree, quite a number have Masters. They are all, in the nicest way, geeks. They live and breathe computing, at work and at home, it's not a job, it's their lives.
It wasn't always like this, I started as a programmer and I was never like that, but if you advertise a technical role today you get a lot of CVs from people who are like this. And they are good, as a 33 year old with no background in it you haven't a hope of competing.
That's as a programmer, of course there are plenty of other roles in computing/IT that may work for you, but I doubt that programming is one of them.
amir_j said:
If you are unemployed why can you not take any junior roles?
Mortgage insurance is covering at the moment so once I get a job it'll have to enough to cover the costs. Your right though 
, this is why I've been stuck as in CAD most of my working life.Thanks for the other idea's but I couldn't even tell you what this PHP actually is & I've no website design knowledge to date BUT this is also on my wish list of knowledge to be.
GeraldSmith, so I'm fkd & everyone else in my position lol. I'm sure if I had the chance I would also be one of those friendly geeks who lives, eats & breaths programming. This isn't something I've suddenly realised I would like to do, I've ALWAYS wanted to be a programmer but never really got off my arse to do what I'm willing to do now.
FellowPazzini said:
GeraldSmith, so I'm fkd & everyone else in my position lol. I'm sure if I had the chance I would also be one of those friendly geeks who lives, eats & breaths programming. This isn't something I've suddenly realised I would like to do, I've ALWAYS wanted to be a programmer but never really got off my arse to do what I'm willing to do now.
But the problem is that you are 33 and you haven't done it. I'm sorry but I recruit and employ programmers, someone who is in their mid thirties and has no experience isn't going to get an interview.
Finding good experienced people is hard, if I need someone with a specific set of experience it can be very hard. In one niche we work in I probably know all the people in the country, and most of the ones in the world who have the required knowledge.
But at the trainee end it's easy, an ad on Monster will get me over 100 CVs in a matter of days. We'll only interview graduates with relevant degrees, it's the easiest starting point to get the numbers down. Your only chance is if you know someone who is willing to employ you and give you a chance, without some personal connection it's going to take a lot of good luck.
Programming is an over subscribed profession until you have quality experience and skills.
Im currently working in CAD and im finding it tedious, been doing it 5 years now but im only 23. I went from land surveying, doing the surveys and giving the client the finished drawings. Now im working for a laser cutting company doing drawings, its mostly easy but i get the odd thing here n there that gives some sort of challenge.
I need to find a change cos i cant see myself doing this much longer unless i need to. Good luck with doing what you want to do mate, its not easy out there out the moment.
I need to find a change cos i cant see myself doing this much longer unless i need to. Good luck with doing what you want to do mate, its not easy out there out the moment.
Ability is the key, I've seen a placement student run rings around people with 15+ years experience.
If you're committed and you have an above average ability/aptitude you can make it 33 years old or not.
Gerald may own a number of software companies and only employs graduates - but that's his mistake.
There are very talented people out there who didn't want to waste their time doing degrees....
Good luck, there will be opportunities out there for you if you're willing to work hard enough.
If you're committed and you have an above average ability/aptitude you can make it 33 years old or not.
Gerald may own a number of software companies and only employs graduates - but that's his mistake.
There are very talented people out there who didn't want to waste their time doing degrees....
Good luck, there will be opportunities out there for you if you're willing to work hard enough.
Big_Kahuna said:
If you're committed and you have an above average ability/aptitude you can make it 33 years old or not.
True, but most 33 year olds will not accept a graduate salary, so unless you have other experience (relevant to the business in question) or are really really good (unlikely unless you have the 'geek' factor) then it's going to be a struggle that may not be worth it.okgo said:
But its all about getting that illusive interview isn't it... Gerald won't be alone in cherry picking based on degree's. Afte all who the feck has time to read through 200 cv's and interview 50 people?
That's the point I'm trying to make. Imagine buying a car, you go into Autotrader and put in VW Golf, there are maybe 10,000 of them. So you put in a price range and that gets you down to 1000, you enter GTi and get to a couple of hundred, so you put in a 50 mile radius and get down to 70. You start looking at them and quickly start rejecting those with over 30,000 miles or those that are blue etc. Eventually you get down to 5 or 10 possibles that you look at in detail and work out which ones to go and see.
Recruitment for trainees is the same, you have to chop 100 or 200 CVs down to a manageable number so you put in criteria and the easiest one for a trainee is that they have a decent degree in something you've heard of from a good university. OK, lots of good people don't have degrees, but lots do and it's the easiest non discriminatory way to chop the numbers down.
If you don't have a degree and you don't have experience then you have only really got two options.
1) Network - find someone who owns or works for a company that need some (any) sort of IT doing.
2) Build a portfolio of work and go and knock on Geralds door - that way he won't have to sift through any CV's. Do this to enough companies and sooner or later you'll knock on a door 10 minutes after someone has handed in their resignation and you'll get your chance to shine.
I got in through option 1 - a mate was working for a local company. I started by installing some email servers, workstations etc. including physically wiring the building myself. Then started developing a couple of bits and pieces for him. After a couple of years moved onto a professional software house.
All told it took me about 6 years to get into after I dropped out of college.
But it can be done.
1) Network - find someone who owns or works for a company that need some (any) sort of IT doing.
2) Build a portfolio of work and go and knock on Geralds door - that way he won't have to sift through any CV's. Do this to enough companies and sooner or later you'll knock on a door 10 minutes after someone has handed in their resignation and you'll get your chance to shine.
I got in through option 1 - a mate was working for a local company. I started by installing some email servers, workstations etc. including physically wiring the building myself. Then started developing a couple of bits and pieces for him. After a couple of years moved onto a professional software house.
All told it took me about 6 years to get into after I dropped out of college.
But it can be done.
zippy3x said:
I got in through option 1 - a mate was working for a local company. I started by installing some email servers, workstations etc. including physically wiring the building myself. Then started developing a couple of bits and pieces for him. After a couple of years moved onto a professional software house.
This is mostly where I'm at - though I'm self employed and have been since leaving school/brief stints at college. Been 10 years now nearly, and hard work, but I'm starting to get somewhere now!Thanks for the more positive views on this, I will certainly take in any advice given & I'm sure other people in a similar position will also be taking note. GeraldSmith's views have certainly gave me a slap in the face on this but there's no doubt he is right in what he says, although not completly. Looks like I'll just have to try my best to learn as much as poss over the next year 1/2 & then see if I'm in a better financial position to take on a entry level programmers wage. Even if nothing comes of this I'm still very interested in programming & making it a hobby.
Option 2 for me, EVERY (programming) company in the surrounding area's will at least see my CV
If anyone has any useful links that you have found helpful for yourself just post it up. Thanks.
Option 2 for me, EVERY (programming) company in the surrounding area's will at least see my CV
If anyone has any useful links that you have found helpful for yourself just post it up. Thanks.
Dam0ZR said:
Im currently working in CAD and im finding it tedious, been doing it 5 years now but im only 23. I went from land surveying, doing the surveys and giving the client the finished drawings. Now im working for a laser cutting company doing drawings, its mostly easy but i get the odd thing here n there that gives some sort of challenge.
I need to find a change cos i cant see myself doing this much longer unless i need to. Good luck with doing what you want to do mate, its not easy out there out the moment.
My 1st job CAD job certainly was tedious, knocking out 100+ min electrical schematic drawings of a gas station p/w. It sure can send you a little loopy after a couple of years ha ha. Tbh I'm not even the quickest draughtsman, accuracy is a must but my forte was the more the software side of things. I had alot more of an interest on how the software (AutoCAD & Microstation) works & what it could do rather than how quick could I draw this n that. Contracting has been good to me with a decent wage but it has got to a point where I just don't want to do it ever again.I need to find a change cos i cant see myself doing this much longer unless i need to. Good luck with doing what you want to do mate, its not easy out there out the moment.
At 23 you are in a great position to getting started doing what you like to do the most, as already mentioned.
FellowPazzini said:
Dam0ZR said:
Im currently working in CAD and im finding it tedious, been doing it 5 years now but im only 23. I went from land surveying, doing the surveys and giving the client the finished drawings. Now im working for a laser cutting company doing drawings, its mostly easy but i get the odd thing here n there that gives some sort of challenge.
I need to find a change cos i cant see myself doing this much longer unless i need to. Good luck with doing what you want to do mate, its not easy out there out the moment.
My 1st job CAD job certainly was tedious, knocking out 100+ min electrical schematic drawings of a gas station p/w. It sure can send you a little loopy after a couple of years ha ha. Tbh I'm not even the quickest draughtsman, accuracy is a must but my forte was the more the software side of things. I had alot more of an interest on how the software (AutoCAD & Microstation) works & what it could do rather than how quick could I draw this n that. Contracting has been good to me with a decent wage but it has got to a point where I just don't want to do it ever again.I need to find a change cos i cant see myself doing this much longer unless i need to. Good luck with doing what you want to do mate, its not easy out there out the moment.
At 23 you are in a great position to getting started doing what you like to do the most, as already mentioned.
spikeyhead said:
How about combining your Acad knowledge with some LISP programming.
CAD isn't my area, but the principle is exactly what you should be doing. Find a way to use the experience you have in a way that is relevant to what you want to do. A 33 year old looking for a trainee programmer position would usually get nowhere with us, as I've said, but if that 33 year old had spent the past ten years working in our vertical market and knew about what people used our software for that could easily take them from the bottom of the pile to the top. It could easily take them out of a basic £18k starting salary as well.MH said:
What kind of field are you in Gerald? What kind of applications? Are your programmers just programmers or do you let them loose to scare customers?
Mike
Primarily specialist CRM for a vertical market, but also more conventional web development, although also into a vertical, and content publication including the infrastructure behind it. So database and web developers.Mike
Yes we let programmers loose on customers to some extent, they don't do the requirements gathering or specification but as the development progresses they have contact with the customers. We find it's important for programmers to have exposure to the people who will use the software so they have some understanding of the context in which the software will be used.
I see, I was just curious about how you described your programmers as geeks in your earlier post. I work for a small software company of 19 people, all with programming backgrounds ( except the DBAs! ) but strangely I wouldn't describe any of us as geeks - maybe others would 
Not everyone has a computer related degree - although I sometimes wish they had as it gives you that extra understanding of the 'why'.
For FellowPazzini - experience counts I'm afraid if you want to earn a decent wage. Otherwise you need to find a company that takes on junior programmers and start there. I'm sure they still exist and some may even prefer to take people with aptitude who have proven employment records even if it's not totally relevant.
I would also recommend you read up on the latest systems development life cycle/methodologies this looks like a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_Development_L... But if you want to get into game programming then read it and forget it, I used to work for Sony and they didn't do any of that. The programmers there code their heads off, give it to testers then stuff it in a box and shove it out the door job done. Think of it more like a baked bean factory there is no traditional 'life cycle' for your products - you design it, make it, package it, ship it, have a launch party, sell it, forget it. If it sells well you make 'baked bean 2'.
Mike
Not everyone has a computer related degree - although I sometimes wish they had as it gives you that extra understanding of the 'why'.For FellowPazzini - experience counts I'm afraid if you want to earn a decent wage. Otherwise you need to find a company that takes on junior programmers and start there. I'm sure they still exist and some may even prefer to take people with aptitude who have proven employment records even if it's not totally relevant.
I would also recommend you read up on the latest systems development life cycle/methodologies this looks like a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_Development_L... But if you want to get into game programming then read it and forget it, I used to work for Sony and they didn't do any of that. The programmers there code their heads off, give it to testers then stuff it in a box and shove it out the door job done. Think of it more like a baked bean factory there is no traditional 'life cycle' for your products - you design it, make it, package it, ship it, have a launch party, sell it, forget it. If it sells well you make 'baked bean 2'.
Mike
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