Notice period issue / Bully Boss issue.
Discussion
The Mrs works in an account department very closely with the female FD.
She took almost two months off last year due to the stress of what her boss was putting her through.
She has a habit of putting proccesses in place and then changing her mind and flying off the handle when things are not done as she wants.
My colleagues predeccessor was "got rid of" because of being signed off for stress, and despite the best efforts of the UK MD, the FD is still in place.
I should point out that she is actually a nice person outside of work, and she would be mortified if she knew what she was putting my partner through.
My partner has only been back full time this week, and is already terrified of going in.
She is going to start looking for a new postition tomorrow, but is worried because of a 3 month notice period, is this legally enforcable?
I personally think my parnter should be sueing the company for what she has put her through, but I know she will not take this route..
She took almost two months off last year due to the stress of what her boss was putting her through.
She has a habit of putting proccesses in place and then changing her mind and flying off the handle when things are not done as she wants.
My colleagues predeccessor was "got rid of" because of being signed off for stress, and despite the best efforts of the UK MD, the FD is still in place.
I should point out that she is actually a nice person outside of work, and she would be mortified if she knew what she was putting my partner through.
My partner has only been back full time this week, and is already terrified of going in.
She is going to start looking for a new postition tomorrow, but is worried because of a 3 month notice period, is this legally enforcable?
I personally think my parnter should be sueing the company for what she has put her through, but I know she will not take this route..
thatone1967 said:
I should point out that she is actually a nice person outside of work, and she would be mortified if she knew what she was putting my partner through.
Why doesn't she? I really sympathise because I've had a couple of completely mental female bosses (one even used to throw stuff at her admin staff) and it's a s
tty situation, but sometimes someone just has to say something. If it's ruining her life and career sucking it up and keeping shtum, then she's nothing to lose by setting some boundaries and communicating them in as calm a way as she can manage. If she can't manage that, then please ask her to consider speaking to HR.oldbanger said:
Why doesn't she?
I really sympathise because I've had a couple of completely mental female bosses (one even used to throw stuff at her admin staff) and it's a stty situation, but sometimes someone just has to say something. If it's ruining her life and career sucking it up and keeping shtum, then she's nothing to lose by setting some boundaries and communicating them in as calm a way as she can manage. If she can't manage that, then please ask her to consider speaking to HR.
Speaking to HR could be an issue, I did suggest that... the HR manager and FD are best buddies....she appears to be almost "untouchable"I really sympathise because I've had a couple of completely mental female bosses (one even used to throw stuff at her admin staff) and it's a s
tty situation, but sometimes someone just has to say something. If it's ruining her life and career sucking it up and keeping shtum, then she's nothing to lose by setting some boundaries and communicating them in as calm a way as she can manage. If she can't manage that, then please ask her to consider speaking to HR.Is there really no one else in HR who could be approached discreetly?
However, if she can manage to communicate some boundaries to her boss, it'll be to her benefit, even if she's going to leave. If she flees the job, rather than merely leaving it, she runs the risk of continuing to feel on the back foot in her work in the next job, and potentially beyond.
I'm extremely thankful for having been given some training in non-defensive communication. It works much better than you'd think and is in my experience pretty useful for dealing with irate people who keep getting in your face. One thing to remember, as well, is that angry people are not in control, that means they are not in control of you as well as themselves. In my experience, particularly in women, agressive and frankly unprofessional behaviour towards subordinates can very often be to mask fears and inadequacies - they lash out because they are fearful and see themselves as the victim in the situation. This could explain a jekyll and hyde workplace/social persona - she's probably quite anxious in work and more relaxed when out socialising or at home. Anxious people can find it difficult to make decisions and to stick to them, potentially meaning panicked last minute changes.
Anyway more about non defensive communication. Ask questions, reflect back/summarise what you think they are try to say, sympathise/empathsise with their problem/upset but don't take things personally, thank them for their feedback (if you can manage this without sounding sarcastic), calmly introduce them to some of the consequences any verbal agression has for you or themselves
e.g. When you berate me like this, I find it difficult to take in what you are saying. Can we talk about this once you have calmed down? I'm sure I'll be able to help you deal with these changes more effectely then.
a few articles about it here:
http://www.mediate.com/articles/ford7.cfm
http://www.hodu.com/communication-relationships.6....
http://maritalmediation.com/2010/07/the-art-of-pow...
However, if she can manage to communicate some boundaries to her boss, it'll be to her benefit, even if she's going to leave. If she flees the job, rather than merely leaving it, she runs the risk of continuing to feel on the back foot in her work in the next job, and potentially beyond.
I'm extremely thankful for having been given some training in non-defensive communication. It works much better than you'd think and is in my experience pretty useful for dealing with irate people who keep getting in your face. One thing to remember, as well, is that angry people are not in control, that means they are not in control of you as well as themselves. In my experience, particularly in women, agressive and frankly unprofessional behaviour towards subordinates can very often be to mask fears and inadequacies - they lash out because they are fearful and see themselves as the victim in the situation. This could explain a jekyll and hyde workplace/social persona - she's probably quite anxious in work and more relaxed when out socialising or at home. Anxious people can find it difficult to make decisions and to stick to them, potentially meaning panicked last minute changes.
Anyway more about non defensive communication. Ask questions, reflect back/summarise what you think they are try to say, sympathise/empathsise with their problem/upset but don't take things personally, thank them for their feedback (if you can manage this without sounding sarcastic), calmly introduce them to some of the consequences any verbal agression has for you or themselves
e.g. When you berate me like this, I find it difficult to take in what you are saying. Can we talk about this once you have calmed down? I'm sure I'll be able to help you deal with these changes more effectely then.
a few articles about it here:
http://www.mediate.com/articles/ford7.cfm
http://www.hodu.com/communication-relationships.6....
http://maritalmediation.com/2010/07/the-art-of-pow...
Edited by oldbanger on Thursday 3rd February 22:18
What would you sue for? With regards the "got rid of" element any company can manage and ultimately dismiss for absence/capability issues. At a return to work interview I wood simply ask what the causes of stress are and what can practically and reasonably be done.
As for the notice period - if it is contractual of course it is enforceable.
As for the notice period - if it is contractual of course it is enforceable.
thatone1967 said:
She is going to start looking for a new postition tomorrow, but is worried because of a 3 month notice period, is this legally enforcable?
If it's in her employment contract then yes. But I can't imagine they'll hold her to it, having someone who's leaving hanging around for that long would be corrosive in most workplaces, it'd be even worse if there's friction. It may well be better for your wife to go into work, and at the inevitable return to work interview tell HR and her boss that she can't handle the stress of the position any more. That will start the capability process and will inevitably lead to the end of employment. At that point she needs to play hardball with them. The threat of employment tribunals, even if you have no intention of going, often get a better deal for you because even if the company wins they end up paying their own costs (easily five figures), and suffer reputational damage (some companies are more bothered than others about this).
Just my opinion, having been through this fairly recently.
Keep a diary. Record what she does, when, where, and who saw her do it.
Check your contract. There may be some clauses about what to do. Make certain you quote these clauses.
etc...
Or just check if you have a "fairness at work clause". If it is acceptable for her to do this it is fair for you to ask what you can have to make up for it under this clause. You're just asking a question, merely clarifying your contract, exactly how many paid holidays or company cars can you have to make up for all the events in your diary. "Nothing" clearly isn't a fair answer, so what can you have? If they don't answer just tell them by letter that you will take one week off under full pay for every event under this clause on the basis that it makes 2% difference to you and one week is 2% of a year. If they cause trouble take all your records to the small claims court and ask for the holiday pay. Emphasise your contract, your request for clarification, their refusal to clarify, their refusal to accept a reasonable compromise and their response to your actions.
You might even win.
Check your contract. There may be some clauses about what to do. Make certain you quote these clauses.
etc...
Or just check if you have a "fairness at work clause". If it is acceptable for her to do this it is fair for you to ask what you can have to make up for it under this clause. You're just asking a question, merely clarifying your contract, exactly how many paid holidays or company cars can you have to make up for all the events in your diary. "Nothing" clearly isn't a fair answer, so what can you have? If they don't answer just tell them by letter that you will take one week off under full pay for every event under this clause on the basis that it makes 2% difference to you and one week is 2% of a year. If they cause trouble take all your records to the small claims court and ask for the holiday pay. Emphasise your contract, your request for clarification, their refusal to clarify, their refusal to accept a reasonable compromise and their response to your actions.
You might even win.
thatone1967 said:
She took almost two months off last year due to the stress of what her boss was putting her through.
The three month notice period is generally enforceable if reasonably drafted but they're unlikely to bother unless your wife is strategically important and goes to a competitor with inside knowledge.
I'd say she has three options.
1. Resign and sue for constructive dismissal. Balls needed.
2. Start looking for another job and keep going in.
3. Tough it out. Balls needed.
Given that she's already taken two months off with "stress" (sorry but this really really gets on my tits - stress is being shot at in the desert and seeing your mates blown to pieces, not being given a hard time in an office) she clearly can't do 1 or 3, so start looking.
Edited by Soovy on Friday 4th February 08:59
thatone1967 said:
I should point out that she is actually a nice person outside of work, and she would be mortified if she knew what she was putting my partner through.
Could your O/H maybe not meet up with her off site for a little chat to say how she feels?Edited by Davel on Friday 4th February 09:50
Soovy said:
The three month notice period is generally enforceable if reasonably drafted but they're unlikely to bother unless your wife is strategically important and goes to a competitor with inside knowledge.
I'd say she has three options.
1. Resign and sue for constructive dismissal. Balls needed.
2. Start looking for another job and keep going in.
3. Tough it out. Balls needed.
Given that she's already taken two months off with "stress" (sorry but this really really gets on my tits - stress is being shot at in the desert and seeing your mates blown to pieces, not being given a hard time in an office) she clearly can't do 1 or 3, so start looking.
Edited by Soovy on Friday 4th February 08:59
Explain that she's not happy with working conditions, thinks that if she wanted to she would could have an employment claim but that it would be better for everyone concerned if she was allowed to leave without serving notice period.
doogz said:
I'm sorry, but i agree with this, stress means you're mentally weak. If she can't hack it, she should leave and find something else. Sueing her boss because she doesn't like her and can't work with her seems a bit off to me. Can we have any examples of things she's done that make work for your wife so bad?
Massively disagree. Stress does not mean you're mentally weak at all and it's totally unacceptable to shift the blame from a bullying boss onto the person on the receiving end. It's how you deal with it that is the most important thing. If the bully won't discuss how to improve things in a rational manner or the company refuses to acknowledge or assist with dealing with them then it's not unreasonable to go down the legal route.
This is obviously fraught with difficulties and in many industries (rightly or wrongly) is a big no-no for your career. Plus some people are quick to claim 'stress' when they're just a bit busy or have a personality clash with someone in the office, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that there are no bullying bosses.
doogz said:
I'm sorry, but i agree with this, stress means you're mentally weak. If she can't hack it, she should leave and find something else. Sueing her boss because she doesn't like her and can't work with her seems a bit off to me. Can we have any examples of things she's done that make work for your wife so bad?
Very, very wrong. Plainly you've never been in a difficult situation like this lady, and hopefully people will be a bit more sympathetic than you when you are. Soovy said:
Given that she's already taken two months off with "stress" (sorry but this really really gets on my tits - stress is being shot at in the desert and seeing your mates blown to pieces, not being given a hard time in an office) she clearly can't do 1 or 3, so start looking.
Are you her boss?Edited by Soovy on Friday 4th February 08:59
doogz said:
I'm sorry, but i agree with this, stress means you're mentally weak. If she can't hack it, she should leave and find something else.
So you have never had a stressful experience? If not, then you're lying. If so, imagine that this stressful experience occurs at least once every working day. This will wear people down, and will affect people in different ways.The situation here is that some people don't like confrontation and so telling their boss where to go or argue back when she throws a paddy isn't something that they will do very easily. Now throw into the mix that the HR director is best friends with the boss then you are in a position, that to most, will seem impossible to sort out.
So, repetitive stressful events with no obvious way to resolve will cause stress.
Small minded and ill-conceived opinions such as stress = mentally weak are beyond stupidity, and demonstrate either a lack of experience or a general lack of intelligence. Yes, if the OP's mrs was to march in and tell the boss exactly what she thinks and explains how it's affecting her life then, yes, the chances are it will help the situation (if done properly) but not everyone can/will do this.
Soovy said:
Given that she's already taken two months off with "stress" (sorry but this really really gets on my tits - stress is being shot at in the desert and seeing your mates blown to pieces, not being given a hard time in an office) she clearly can't do 1 or 3, so start looking.
Ah, come on, Soovy, this is a silly line of reasoning. There's a continuum of stress between "stoned off your tits listening to the Orb" and "being shot at in the desert".It's not all-or-nothing. When it's your job on the line, and subsequently your mortgage and your place to live, then yes, it can be fvcking stressful dealing with a s
t-of-a-boss. No, it's not like being shot at in the desert (Have you ever been shot at in the desert? No, me neither. Still been stressed, though), but it's still stressful and chronic stress makes you ill.
Sometimes stress arises from being in a situation and simply not knowing what the bloody hell you're supposed to, or allowed to, do.
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