Coilovers vs Bilsteins
Discussion
When I was first in the market for an mx5 I decided I would have to save for some coilovers after a while. When I got my eunos s special it had bilsteins and the money I was to put towards coilovers eventually went on brake calipers and servicing (long story).
So, other than the bilsteins being tired and needing replacing anyway, why do people replace them with coilovers, I would have thought they'd be on a par if not better than the cheaper end of the scale.
So, other than the bilsteins being tired and needing replacing anyway, why do people replace them with coilovers, I would have thought they'd be on a par if not better than the cheaper end of the scale.
Mostly because the Mk1 Bilstein setup isn't very good, especially on the rubbish UK roads. From what I've heard, the shocks are too stiff while the springs are too soft which means that while they give a crashy ride they still roll onto the bump-stops on corners. Worst of both worlds. While it can feel impressive initially it soon gets tiring and the standard setup actually works a lot better.
A good setup will have springs stiff enough to resist roll and keep it from riding on the bump-stops while the shocks are stiff enough to control the bouncing while being soft enough that they don't ruin the ride.
A good setup will have springs stiff enough to resist roll and keep it from riding on the bump-stops while the shocks are stiff enough to control the bouncing while being soft enough that they don't ruin the ride.
That would just be attempting to rectify a bad setup by adding another bodge. All that would do would be to make the ride even worse. A good setup doesn't need stiffer ARBs, in fact some of the race cars don't use ARBs at all though they aren't worried about ride quality.
The Mk2 Bilstein setup is completely different from the Mk1. They changed it for a very good reason.
The Mk2 Bilstein setup is completely different from the Mk1. They changed it for a very good reason.
renaultgeek said:
surely body roll should be remedied by a stiffer ARB no?
Thus rendering the independent suspension than much less independent.ARB's have their uses, but a too stiff ARB whilst reducing roll, overworks the outside tyres and ultimately massively reduces cornering grip and therefore speed.
OH and FWIW, Bilstiens are coilovers. In fact every single shock absorber and spring combination on an MX5 is a coilover, the clue is in the name...
Richyvrlimited said:
Thus rendering the independent suspension than much less independent.
ARB's have their uses, but a too stiff ARB whilst reducing roll, overworks the outside tyres and ultimately massively reduces cornering grip and therefore speed.
OH and FWIW, Bilstiens are coilovers. In fact every single shock absorber and spring combination on an MX5 is a coilover, the clue is in the name...
yeah, I never got the coilover speak meaning fully adjustable non oem thingy. Some good info there on the ARBs.ARB's have their uses, but a too stiff ARB whilst reducing roll, overworks the outside tyres and ultimately massively reduces cornering grip and therefore speed.
OH and FWIW, Bilstiens are coilovers. In fact every single shock absorber and spring combination on an MX5 is a coilover, the clue is in the name...
renaultgeek said:
So if a cheap set of these were available it's a worthy upgrade?
Definitely, but you need the complete unit, topmounts included, and you'll likely have to lop a coil off each spring to maintain a sensible ride height.Thankfully MK2 springs are pigtailed/open-ended, so this is a safe practice, you should never do this on MY1 springs which are flat bottomed/topped
TameRacingDriver said:
Don't get the hate for the Bilsteins on a Mk1, I had a standard Eunos RS Limited, and it drove superbly, and was a lot better than my UK spec Mk1 on standard stuff.
Another one of those internet myths? Yes they were firm, but it's a sports car!!
Not a myth, if you've actually tried something decent (i.e. not 'standard' shocks), you'll understand the distaste for MK1 billies.Another one of those internet myths? Yes they were firm, but it's a sports car!!
They do have a couple of things in the + column though, they're rebuild-able, so if you're so inclined you have have the valving sorted out, hell pay enough money and they can be fully compression and rebound adjustable!
They're also pretty damn sturdy.
Richyvrlimited said:
Not a myth, if you've actually tried something decent (i.e. not 'standard' shocks), you'll understand the distaste for MK1 billies.
They do have a couple of things in the + column though, they're rebuild-able, so if you're so inclined you have have the valving sorted out, hell pay enough money and they can be fully compression and rebound adjustable!
They're also pretty damn sturdy.
Well, all I can say after 2 MX5s and a bunch of other sporty cars, I found my Billie'd RS-Limited superb on all roads. I guess that's one of those things I'll never really agree with. Maybe those who criticise had worn out dampers or something, because I didn't really notice most of the gripes, other than the firmness and even that wasn't ridiculous.They do have a couple of things in the + column though, they're rebuild-able, so if you're so inclined you have have the valving sorted out, hell pay enough money and they can be fully compression and rebound adjustable!
They're also pretty damn sturdy.
Kozy said:
Can the 'overdampedness' be remedied with stiffer springs?
I found when I changed springs and dampers on my Civic, despite being 50% stiffer in front and 100% stiffer in the rear, the car actually rode better...
Not really, they have way WAY too much rebound, this causes the the car to jack down onto the shock and you end up on the bumpstops.I found when I changed springs and dampers on my Civic, despite being 50% stiffer in front and 100% stiffer in the rear, the car actually rode better...
I can't agree TDR that the billies ride well at all. A quality shock provides a far more composed and confident ride on much higher spring rates than the OEM billes come with. This means turn in and roll is far more improved etc etc.
I've always been in 2 minds about the billies on my MkI import. A previous owner (in Japan I guess) had fitted Mazdaspeed (Eibach) lowering springs, but in general my experience tallies with the comments above.
On the downside:
-When I got the car I kind of assumed that the dampers must be shot after circa 100k miles and 15 years. After a while though I realised they were fine, but I'm waiting for one to pop sooner or later.
-The ride is OK on the road, but the rear does run out of travel quite quickly over big bumps at high speed. That does tend to temper your desire to attack an unfamiliar road in case the car gets upsettled over a mid corner bump.
-On track, from the outside it really looks like it leans over a long way.
-The grass is always greener on the other side- a shiny set of new 'coilovers' is a perennial temptation
On the upside:
-Despite how it looks from the outside, when driving on track it doesn't feel like it rolls excessively.
-Numerous instructors and passengers have commented on how well set-up it feels and asked what I've done to the suspension to make it so good.
-After 4 years and about 15 track days the dampers seem to holding up to the (ab)use OK.
So at the moment I'm happy to keep it as it is until such time that they blow or start leaking and then I'll use that as an excuse to upgrade. Then the question is what to go for, but that's a whole thread's worth of debate in itself...
On the downside:
-When I got the car I kind of assumed that the dampers must be shot after circa 100k miles and 15 years. After a while though I realised they were fine, but I'm waiting for one to pop sooner or later.
-The ride is OK on the road, but the rear does run out of travel quite quickly over big bumps at high speed. That does tend to temper your desire to attack an unfamiliar road in case the car gets upsettled over a mid corner bump.
-On track, from the outside it really looks like it leans over a long way.
-The grass is always greener on the other side- a shiny set of new 'coilovers' is a perennial temptation
On the upside:
-Despite how it looks from the outside, when driving on track it doesn't feel like it rolls excessively.
-Numerous instructors and passengers have commented on how well set-up it feels and asked what I've done to the suspension to make it so good.
-After 4 years and about 15 track days the dampers seem to holding up to the (ab)use OK.
So at the moment I'm happy to keep it as it is until such time that they blow or start leaking and then I'll use that as an excuse to upgrade. Then the question is what to go for, but that's a whole thread's worth of debate in itself...
Richyvrlimited said:
Slight tangent, but I bloody love curborough
Have to agree there. I haven't been there for a few years but it's great fun, actually more fun in our "slow" track car than in my quick SC car.But back on topic, that picture above shows what we are talking about. You can see that it has rolled over far enough top be resting on the bump-stops. On a smooth track that's not so bad but on the road...
This is what I don't understand though, I never ever had my RS riding on the bump stops, EVER. And I used to drive it as hard as I dared, I used to leave those on their coilovers over any twisty section of road for dead as their cars grounded out repeatedly in a shower of sparks.
Maybe I had some "magic" Bilsteins that were actually good then?
Maybe I had some "magic" Bilsteins that were actually good then?
TameRacingDriver said:
This is what I don't understand though, I never ever had my RS riding on the bump stops, EVER. And I used to drive it as hard as I dared, I used to leave those on their coilovers over any twisty section of road for dead as their cars grounded out repeatedly in a shower of sparks.
Maybe I had some "magic" Bilsteins that were actually good then?
I've not found problems with mine either. But then again the only other MX5s I've driven were going to the scrapyard (how I decided I had to have one)Maybe I had some "magic" Bilsteins that were actually good then?
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