Is Horology a good career choice for my daughter?
Discussion
I’ve had a keen interest in watches since junior school and for my sins, I have more watches than days in the month, (mainly 1930’s-1960’s pieces). This interest is starting to rub off on my 11yr old daughter who has her own Mondaine Swiss railway watch and a beautiful late 1930’s Breguet ladies dress watch, (both were her ideas / choices for presents).
Whilst my daughters interest in watches seems to stem more from a design aspect as opposed to the history of the brand or the micro engineering of their manufacture, she has expressed interest in the idea of a career in horology. This would be handy as the BHI at Newark is only 30 miles down the road from us.
My questions therefore are;
Is horology a good career choice, especially thinking long term?
Is it generally considered to be a pleasant industry to work in?
How open is this industry to girls, especially mixed race girls?
How acute is the skills shortage?
Whilst I’ve always believed it’s better to do something that you enjoy rather than something that pays well, could my daughter earn a reasonable living off of this?
What subjects should my daughter be concentrating on at school? As it stands, we try and focus her attention on Maths, English and the Science’s, although she’s also in the top set for French.
I suppose another aspect of this is the risk that I’m wanting to live out my own failed fantasies through my daughter, (as a lot of parents end up doing with their own children). I’ll be the first to admit, I’m pretty rubbish at being a Father. I’m loath for this to be anything other than my daughters choice, so any tips on encouraging her enough to be supportive, whilst being remote enough to not be forcing her into something she might not fully enjoy would be appreciated.
I know there’s a couple of watchmakers on here and if you have the time, I’d really appreciate your input.
Many thanks in advance
Whilst my daughters interest in watches seems to stem more from a design aspect as opposed to the history of the brand or the micro engineering of their manufacture, she has expressed interest in the idea of a career in horology. This would be handy as the BHI at Newark is only 30 miles down the road from us.
My questions therefore are;
Is horology a good career choice, especially thinking long term?
Is it generally considered to be a pleasant industry to work in?
How open is this industry to girls, especially mixed race girls?
How acute is the skills shortage?
Whilst I’ve always believed it’s better to do something that you enjoy rather than something that pays well, could my daughter earn a reasonable living off of this?
What subjects should my daughter be concentrating on at school? As it stands, we try and focus her attention on Maths, English and the Science’s, although she’s also in the top set for French.
I suppose another aspect of this is the risk that I’m wanting to live out my own failed fantasies through my daughter, (as a lot of parents end up doing with their own children). I’ll be the first to admit, I’m pretty rubbish at being a Father. I’m loath for this to be anything other than my daughters choice, so any tips on encouraging her enough to be supportive, whilst being remote enough to not be forcing her into something she might not fully enjoy would be appreciated.
I know there’s a couple of watchmakers on here and if you have the time, I’d really appreciate your input.
Many thanks in advance
r159 said:
Thanks for the link. I’ll take a look at that.I’m not mentioning race and gender to be part of the woke victim mentality. It’s just that sometimes if your face doesn’t fit, then it doesn’t fit.
I experienced this first hand when I worked in casinos down in London. Myself and the rest of the Northern Monkeys would be paid about 25-33% less than our equivalently experienced London raised colleagues.
105.4 said:
I’ve had a keen interest in watches since junior school and for my sins, I have more watches than days in the month, (mainly 1930’s-1960’s pieces). This interest is starting to rub off on my 11yr old daughter who has her own Mondaine Swiss railway watch and a beautiful late 1930’s Breguet ladies dress watch, (both were her ideas / choices for presents).
Whilst my daughters interest in watches seems to stem more from a design aspect as opposed to the history of the brand or the micro engineering of their manufacture, she has expressed interest in the idea of a career in horology. This would be handy as the BHI at Newark is only 30 miles down the road from us.
My questions therefore are;
Is horology a good career choice, especially thinking long term?
Is it generally considered to be a pleasant industry to work in?
How open is this industry to girls, especially mixed race girls?
How acute is the skills shortage?
Whilst I’ve always believed it’s better to do something that you enjoy rather than something that pays well, could my daughter earn a reasonable living off of this?
What subjects should my daughter be concentrating on at school? As it stands, we try and focus her attention on Maths, English and the Science’s, although she’s also in the top set for French.
I suppose another aspect of this is the risk that I’m wanting to live out my own failed fantasies through my daughter, (as a lot of parents end up doing with their own children). I’ll be the first to admit, I’m pretty rubbish at being a Father. I’m loath for this to be anything other than my daughters choice, so any tips on encouraging her enough to be supportive, whilst being remote enough to not be forcing her into something she might not fully enjoy would be appreciated.
I know there’s a couple of watchmakers on here and if you have the time, I’d really appreciate your input.
Many thanks in advance
Well.... where to begin!Whilst my daughters interest in watches seems to stem more from a design aspect as opposed to the history of the brand or the micro engineering of their manufacture, she has expressed interest in the idea of a career in horology. This would be handy as the BHI at Newark is only 30 miles down the road from us.
My questions therefore are;
Is horology a good career choice, especially thinking long term?
Is it generally considered to be a pleasant industry to work in?
How open is this industry to girls, especially mixed race girls?
How acute is the skills shortage?
Whilst I’ve always believed it’s better to do something that you enjoy rather than something that pays well, could my daughter earn a reasonable living off of this?
What subjects should my daughter be concentrating on at school? As it stands, we try and focus her attention on Maths, English and the Science’s, although she’s also in the top set for French.
I suppose another aspect of this is the risk that I’m wanting to live out my own failed fantasies through my daughter, (as a lot of parents end up doing with their own children). I’ll be the first to admit, I’m pretty rubbish at being a Father. I’m loath for this to be anything other than my daughters choice, so any tips on encouraging her enough to be supportive, whilst being remote enough to not be forcing her into something she might not fully enjoy would be appreciated.
I know there’s a couple of watchmakers on here and if you have the time, I’d really appreciate your input.
Many thanks in advance
I came to horology as a second career and trained at Birmingham City University on their Horology degree and also with the BHI which you mention in your post. WOSTEP is another well respected avenue but is self funded without the ease of student loans etc (unless sponsored by a watch manufacturer which is most common). I'll try to answer your questions as honestly as I can...
It's not a bad career choice but the potential to earn well is limited unless you are somewhat entrepreneurial. Job security is however excellent and you are almost guaranteed to be employed as a watchmaker with one of the major watch houses following training. Unfortunately, these companies for some strange reason put the service centres in the most expensive parts of the country (London/south east) and so cost of living eats into an already capped salary. Broadly I'm talking £25-50k here.
I'ts a very pleasant industry to work in. I've made some great friends over the years and we tend to keep in touch, helping each other out where we can. I'm off to the Isle of Man tomorrow to see my mate working at Roger Smiths so will be enjoying some free accommodation for the TT thanks to his career choice
The industry is very open to girls. All of the female watchmakers I know have gone on to work at major Swiss brands including Richard Mille, Omega, (Swatch group), LVMH etc, plus some respected independent watch repair businesses.
Skills shortage is very much still present and will take a long time to change, hence the employment security and choice of employers. If you want to guarantee yourself a job for life, I'd probably lean towards watches rather than clocks. My clock mates have gone into really interesting conservation type roles and any that are self employed have waiting lists in the months/years.
Education? Doesn't really matter! If you are somewhat logical, a bit dexterous and have an interest you can do well with it.
Feel free to ask any other questions you may have or drop me an email.
This is a well regarded course, not many positions open but pretty much a guaranteed job if she qualifies as it is WOSTEP recognised. Plenty of places will fund her through it with a deal of one/two years employment when she completes - particularly if she is young.
British School of Watchmaking
Or she can do things remotely with the BHI
(I looked into both, the BHI seemed a bit more old and stuffy to me, BSW was a bit more youthful)
Contacting the Alliance as linked above is also helpful, they will certainly be able to give you some good advice.
There is a huge demand for the next generation of watchmakers so she is unlikely to need for employment, particularly if she is willing to travel/live elsewhere. As also said French and/or German would be very helpful.
There are loads of women in the industry, so that shouldn’t be a barrier whatsoever. I’d like to think race also wasn’t an issue but I have no direct experience so hard to say. It’s a pretty multicultural industry though so I cannot imagine stuff like that is an issue (at least explicitly)
British School of Watchmaking
Or she can do things remotely with the BHI
(I looked into both, the BHI seemed a bit more old and stuffy to me, BSW was a bit more youthful)
Contacting the Alliance as linked above is also helpful, they will certainly be able to give you some good advice.
There is a huge demand for the next generation of watchmakers so she is unlikely to need for employment, particularly if she is willing to travel/live elsewhere. As also said French and/or German would be very helpful.
There are loads of women in the industry, so that shouldn’t be a barrier whatsoever. I’d like to think race also wasn’t an issue but I have no direct experience so hard to say. It’s a pretty multicultural industry though so I cannot imagine stuff like that is an issue (at least explicitly)
Edited by Mezzanine on Friday 3rd June 14:59
105.4 said:
r159 said:
Thanks for the link. I’ll take a look at that.I’m not mentioning race and gender to be part of the woke victim mentality. It’s just that sometimes if your face doesn’t fit, then it doesn’t fit.
I experienced this first hand when I worked in casinos down in London. Myself and the rest of the Northern Monkeys would be paid about 25-33% less than our equivalently experienced London raised colleagues.
There are a lot of high street brands based in the uk too Rotary, Time Products UK (Accurist Sekonda Limit).
Industrial design would be a sound grounding, STEM subjects and English very good to have even as a backup. Keeping a portfolio of designs even from a young age, learning how to use drawing packages. Maybe a 3d printer she could start making her own prototypes…
Dial design would be cool to do with a photo quality printer cut the dials out, AliExpress for some bits… or a 2nd hand watch for a base.
Does she have access to a decent sized tablet and stylus, or a laptop? If so, it might be a really fun and accessible way to start designing on screen and even transfer hand drawn images into digital and refine/expand on them on the screen.
ps, looks like there's some decent watch face design content on YT
ps, looks like there's some decent watch face design content on YT
Edited by ReverendCounter on Friday 3rd June 15:16
My parents have a very old grandfather clock.
It was repaired pre COVID, at the time the waiting list for their preferred horologist to look at it was about 18 months. He said there was a shortage in the industry, and said a lot of people were also approaching retirement.
He is self employed, and chooses the jobs, (and customers) he takes, and flexes his working times to suit his mood. I don't think he is very money orientated, but that also suggests he has enough to be comfortable!
It was repaired pre COVID, at the time the waiting list for their preferred horologist to look at it was about 18 months. He said there was a shortage in the industry, and said a lot of people were also approaching retirement.
He is self employed, and chooses the jobs, (and customers) he takes, and flexes his working times to suit his mood. I don't think he is very money orientated, but that also suggests he has enough to be comfortable!
I've been repairing clocks for 30+ years. Started as a hobby working on my own clocks, expanded into repairing clocks for customers part time while having a full time job. As the business grew, I switched to part time PAYE about 14 years ago. Gave up the PAYE job about 4 years ago, and went full time on clocks.
Most of the guys that were "competitors" have either died or given up due to poor health, and I keep getting busier. I think the only new "face" in the area is a shop that has relocated from further "up country".
Learning to work on clocks can be done entirely from books, working alongside an experienced repairer, or by doing the BHI course.
Passing the BHI course means letters after your name, and would probably mean better/faster earning potential if you want to work with someone else.
Teaching yourself is probably easier than it's ever been, with help from forums and groups, and plenty of stuff on Youtube.
It's a job for life, and there aren't enough people doing it.
Watchmaking seems to be quite different. Most manufacturers/brands are doing their utmost to keep everything "in house", restricting supplies of parts to their accredited repairers. Being an independent watch repairer seems to be pretty much impossible without a massive investment in manufacturer training. It's becoming a closed shop. If you can't buy parts, you are stuck. The parts suppliers (Material Houses) are struggling. The biggest in the UK (Cousins) has been having a long-term legal battle with the Swiss companies to get stock, and keep getting knocked back. Apparently, restricting parts supply isn't seen as being anti-competitive by the Swiss courts, and the European court doesn't seem bothered either.
From what I can make out, there are zero independent watchmakers where I live. It's been like that for about 10 years.
Most of the guys that were "competitors" have either died or given up due to poor health, and I keep getting busier. I think the only new "face" in the area is a shop that has relocated from further "up country".
Learning to work on clocks can be done entirely from books, working alongside an experienced repairer, or by doing the BHI course.
Passing the BHI course means letters after your name, and would probably mean better/faster earning potential if you want to work with someone else.
Teaching yourself is probably easier than it's ever been, with help from forums and groups, and plenty of stuff on Youtube.
It's a job for life, and there aren't enough people doing it.
Watchmaking seems to be quite different. Most manufacturers/brands are doing their utmost to keep everything "in house", restricting supplies of parts to their accredited repairers. Being an independent watch repairer seems to be pretty much impossible without a massive investment in manufacturer training. It's becoming a closed shop. If you can't buy parts, you are stuck. The parts suppliers (Material Houses) are struggling. The biggest in the UK (Cousins) has been having a long-term legal battle with the Swiss companies to get stock, and keep getting knocked back. Apparently, restricting parts supply isn't seen as being anti-competitive by the Swiss courts, and the European court doesn't seem bothered either.
From what I can make out, there are zero independent watchmakers where I live. It's been like that for about 10 years.
You’ve had some excellent responses from people far more knowledgeable than me. A couple of suggestions to maybe inspire more interest if you do venture down south. The exhibition at the Greenwich observatory is really good at explaining the evolution of watch and clock movements and the importance of time to navigation (all 4 of Harrison’s famous pieces are there to admire). The Science Museum isn’t too bad on the same topic but you do get a sense of it being stuck in a dusty corner. It’s obviously not a cheap trip but the MIH in Switzerland is also a great visit, very focused on the commercial story and is in the heart of the industry - and she could try out her French at the same time.
This is no practical help in terms of the career questions, but there’s a really good documentary on Amazon Prime, ‘The watchmaker’s apprentice’, told from the perspective of George Daniels and his apprentice Roger W. Smith
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Watchmakers-Apprentice-Ro...
Might be a bit dry for your daughter, but it’s full of watch prawn for us old giffers (and of course it’s a program full of old giffers too)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Watchmakers-Apprentice-Ro...
Might be a bit dry for your daughter, but it’s full of watch prawn for us old giffers (and of course it’s a program full of old giffers too)
My stepfather has spent his whole working life as a watch repairer, starting as an apprentice for H Samuels at 16, through to owning his own workshop for the past 30 years. In that time he’s continually redefined his niche to now specialising in Rolex only and as an accredited repairer has enough regular customers to see him through to retirement.
Whilst the world does seem to generally be heading in a smart watch direction, there will always be a place for quality horologists. Age, race, gender, will not matter one jot.
As starting points, there’s a very lucrative market available in battery & reseals, with minimal equipment required. Another area worth exploring, especially with her interest in design is modding. There’s a thread on these pages and a decent Reddit group.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SeikoMods/
Good luck to her!
Whilst the world does seem to generally be heading in a smart watch direction, there will always be a place for quality horologists. Age, race, gender, will not matter one jot.
As starting points, there’s a very lucrative market available in battery & reseals, with minimal equipment required. Another area worth exploring, especially with her interest in design is modding. There’s a thread on these pages and a decent Reddit group.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SeikoMods/
Good luck to her!
Nekkidwatchmaker and wrist watch revival on youtube are good too, I am sure there are others.
Wrist watch revival is particularly good because he gives a running commentary on every component and task.
The videos are fairly long, but would perhaps be a good indication of interest level. Marshall (wristwacthrevival) is largely self taught from watching Youtube as well.
Wrist watch revival is particularly good because he gives a running commentary on every component and task.
The videos are fairly long, but would perhaps be a good indication of interest level. Marshall (wristwacthrevival) is largely self taught from watching Youtube as well.
@r129
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Bravo chaps
Bravo.
I’ve been on this site since about 2005, and whilst PH generally isn’t as good as it used to be, it’s threads like this one that make it worthwhile still sticking around. My most sincere thanks to each and every one of you.
There’s some fantastic advice on here, a lot to be working on, and if I ever meet any of you in real life, I’ll happily buy each of you a pint
In fact, there’s so much great advice on here, it’s only really added to my dilemma of trying to gently ease my daughter into this. For her sins, she has many of my negative traits, including my stubbornness, so I’ve got to tread very carefully in making this all seem like her idea. If she senses that I’m forcing her, she’ll dig her heals in and do the opposite, (I’m sure you understand my problem Fallingup !)
She does have a large sized, high powered and pretty new iPad with a stylus. She uses that a lot for art, (another passion of hers is drawing Manga cartoons). Plus my Wife does little bits of CAD work. Despite me being a total Luddite, I’m sure my Wife will be able to sort out some software to enable my daughter to doodle watch face designs.
I think the best way forwards is to start off with myself and my daughter getting a couple of practice automatic movements and some basic tools off of eBay and working on a couple of pieces together one evening after dinner. If she’s into it, we can progress further from there.
My most grateful and sincere thanks to each and every one of you for your fantastic advice. Sorry for not replying yesterday, but I was working on getting my van fixed for work this morning until quite late last night.
@gregs656
@Timer
@Mezzanine
@ReverendCounter
@CubanPete
@clockworks
@Bernt Tuakrisp
@bigandclever
@bristolbaron
@Fallingup
Bravo chaps
Bravo.I’ve been on this site since about 2005, and whilst PH generally isn’t as good as it used to be, it’s threads like this one that make it worthwhile still sticking around. My most sincere thanks to each and every one of you.
There’s some fantastic advice on here, a lot to be working on, and if I ever meet any of you in real life, I’ll happily buy each of you a pint
In fact, there’s so much great advice on here, it’s only really added to my dilemma of trying to gently ease my daughter into this. For her sins, she has many of my negative traits, including my stubbornness, so I’ve got to tread very carefully in making this all seem like her idea. If she senses that I’m forcing her, she’ll dig her heals in and do the opposite, (I’m sure you understand my problem Fallingup !)
She does have a large sized, high powered and pretty new iPad with a stylus. She uses that a lot for art, (another passion of hers is drawing Manga cartoons). Plus my Wife does little bits of CAD work. Despite me being a total Luddite, I’m sure my Wife will be able to sort out some software to enable my daughter to doodle watch face designs.
I think the best way forwards is to start off with myself and my daughter getting a couple of practice automatic movements and some basic tools off of eBay and working on a couple of pieces together one evening after dinner. If she’s into it, we can progress further from there.
My most grateful and sincere thanks to each and every one of you for your fantastic advice. Sorry for not replying yesterday, but I was working on getting my van fixed for work this morning until quite late last night.
Good career is relative, I guess. I'm a watchmaker and would rather have been an engineer in hindsight, but it sure beats digging a hole in the ground or dealing with the public! The thing with watchmaking is it's a bit niche, so my Product Design and Engineering friends have all been able to change jobs into something related to their skills while I can only fix watches.
The joy of taking things apart and putting them back together certainly wears off when you're doing the same few calibers all day every day and hitting productivity targets. That said it's far from unpleasant being at a bench with a nice movement to assemble and your choice of music in your headphones. It's not the kind of job you can really chat too much in though.
Pay is typically in the ~£25-40K region for watchmaking jobs and progression often involves moving companies as they're often happy to leave you doing the same thing all year every year. Learning new calibers is generally seen as a carrot to keep you at a company and your progression through a company will generally start with working on a couple of basic calibers and gradually being given new ones to work on. Training can be anything from being given a new watch to figure out by yourself to a week in Switzerland in a nice hotel at a brands HQ, depending on company and caliber.
Some companies can certainly feel pretty miserable to work for, others less so. Female watchmakers are a minority, but they certainly exist. I've never worked at a place with more than a few though. There is a demand for watchmakers, but there's only a few big employers so they're not really falling over themselves to offer you more cash. Another thing to consider is that there are relatively few locations that employ a lot of watchmakers. Manchester has a couple of service centres, but the bulk are in the South East.
The big watchmaking companies can be quite cartel-like in their behavior and it's not uncommon for people to lose their accreditation through no fault of their own and gaining brand accreditation can be tough as it makes you valuable to jewellers, etc and thus liable to ask for more money or leave. I can't really imagine it being the same with, say, software accreditation.
The British School of Watchmaking in Manchester is probably the best bet in the UK as you can get company sponsorship making your education effectively free (I think it's about £15K/yr over two years if self funding, happy to be corrected) and everyone knows the WOSTEP qualification. Failing that, my next choice would be some kind of apprenticeship.
Clockmaking and watch restoration are less secure career paths in the sense that they are more akin to self employment and have less of the security & benefits of working for a large employer. You often need to buy your own tools and find yourself repairing the mistakes of previous horologists & it's much more of an old man's profession than watchmaking. I found part making and restoration the most satisfying part of learning, but regular pay cheques win out! If you don't have a good financial starting point, I wouldn't entertain these. If you do though, you'll probably find there's loads of work out there.
A focus on English, Maths & Science would help (French can't hurt), but in truth the job is largely practical and little of the theory you learn is genuinely difficult. Beyond knowing the names of all the parts, there's little theory I use these days and I don't feel there's much to learn. If she's an A* student she might want something more challenging.
Buying a cheap 6497 and taking it apart and putting it back together is a good start, it's what we all did.
There is a demand for watchmakers but like I say it's quite niche and there are a limited number of employers. If you decide you don't like it you're kind of stuck.
The joy of taking things apart and putting them back together certainly wears off when you're doing the same few calibers all day every day and hitting productivity targets. That said it's far from unpleasant being at a bench with a nice movement to assemble and your choice of music in your headphones. It's not the kind of job you can really chat too much in though.
Pay is typically in the ~£25-40K region for watchmaking jobs and progression often involves moving companies as they're often happy to leave you doing the same thing all year every year. Learning new calibers is generally seen as a carrot to keep you at a company and your progression through a company will generally start with working on a couple of basic calibers and gradually being given new ones to work on. Training can be anything from being given a new watch to figure out by yourself to a week in Switzerland in a nice hotel at a brands HQ, depending on company and caliber.
Some companies can certainly feel pretty miserable to work for, others less so. Female watchmakers are a minority, but they certainly exist. I've never worked at a place with more than a few though. There is a demand for watchmakers, but there's only a few big employers so they're not really falling over themselves to offer you more cash. Another thing to consider is that there are relatively few locations that employ a lot of watchmakers. Manchester has a couple of service centres, but the bulk are in the South East.
The big watchmaking companies can be quite cartel-like in their behavior and it's not uncommon for people to lose their accreditation through no fault of their own and gaining brand accreditation can be tough as it makes you valuable to jewellers, etc and thus liable to ask for more money or leave. I can't really imagine it being the same with, say, software accreditation.
The British School of Watchmaking in Manchester is probably the best bet in the UK as you can get company sponsorship making your education effectively free (I think it's about £15K/yr over two years if self funding, happy to be corrected) and everyone knows the WOSTEP qualification. Failing that, my next choice would be some kind of apprenticeship.
Clockmaking and watch restoration are less secure career paths in the sense that they are more akin to self employment and have less of the security & benefits of working for a large employer. You often need to buy your own tools and find yourself repairing the mistakes of previous horologists & it's much more of an old man's profession than watchmaking. I found part making and restoration the most satisfying part of learning, but regular pay cheques win out! If you don't have a good financial starting point, I wouldn't entertain these. If you do though, you'll probably find there's loads of work out there.
A focus on English, Maths & Science would help (French can't hurt), but in truth the job is largely practical and little of the theory you learn is genuinely difficult. Beyond knowing the names of all the parts, there's little theory I use these days and I don't feel there's much to learn. If she's an A* student she might want something more challenging.
Buying a cheap 6497 and taking it apart and putting it back together is a good start, it's what we all did.
There is a demand for watchmakers but like I say it's quite niche and there are a limited number of employers. If you decide you don't like it you're kind of stuck.
Edited by glazbagun on Sunday 5th June 20:21
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